AS IF!
This week on Deep Thoughts, Emily re-examines her favorite movie from high school: Clueless. Not only did this film kickstart Emily’s Paul Rudd appreciation, but it also provided her with some lovely examples of teen girl friendship, healthy father/daughter relationship dynamics, and how to apologize.
But it’s not all sunshine in this adaptation of Jane Austen’s Emma. Tracie and I also discuss how the film normalizes disordered relationships with food and exercise while teaching that unwanted male attention (and assault) are the price of being female–as is being shamed whether you are sexually experienced or inexperienced.
Throw on your earbuds and relive the fashion, the music, and the casual homophobia of 1995!
Mentioned in this episode:
Clueless on YouTube (with ads)
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
AS IF!
This week on Deep Thoughts, Emily re-examines her favorite movie from high school: Clueless. Not only did this film kickstart Emily’s Paul Rudd appreciation, but it also provided her with some lovely examples of teen girl friendship, healthy father/daughter relationship dynamics, and how to apologize.
But it’s not all sunshine in this adaptation of Jane Austen’s Emma. Tracie and I also discuss how the film normalizes disordered relationships with food and exercise while teaching that unwanted male attention (and assault) are the price of being female–as is being shamed whether you are sexually experienced or inexperienced.
Throw on your earbuds and relive the fashion, the music, and the casual homophobia of 1995!
Mentioned in this episode:
Clueless on YouTube (with ads)
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burkin and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my Deep Thoughts about the 1995 film Clueless with my sister, tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed Because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people.
Speaker 1:So, Trace, tell me what you remember about Clueless.
Speaker 2:Oh, actually I'm not 100% sure I've seen it. If I have, it's been a long time. I realized that I was mixing it up with Legally Blonde, Easy to do yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like when we talked about that, you were going to share your deep thoughts about this film. Like I was thinking of Legally Blonde, so I know it has Alicia Silverstone in it and the character's name is Cher, cher, yes, and her best friend is Black, right, yes, and I know that because my daughter wanted to go for Halloween as Cher and her best friend, who is Black, was going to be that actor whose name I don't know, dion, thank you. And we bought this Halloween costume with, like a yellow plaid mini skirt and yellow plaid cardigan. That's it, that's all I know. So not a lot, not a lot. I'm excited to hear from you about this film. So, but before we get there, like, why are we talking about it?
Speaker 1:So this film came out at exactly the right time for me. I was 16 years old when it came out and it was about kids who were basically 16 years old, so it was geared specifically towards me.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I loved it. I loved it Now partially because Paul Rudd is love interest in it and Paul Rudd is like an angel sent down to all of us.
Speaker 2:First, you know it's funny. I just I just last night watched the community episode where Jeff says religion is kind of like Paul Rudd, like I see the appeal, like I get why people like it, but I wouldn't cross the street for it.
Speaker 1:He's just um, he's adorable and a mensch, it seems like, and like silly. Mostly the adorable is what I was focused on back in 1995. And the other thing about him is like they talk about he doesn't age and you can actually see the difference Like he looks so baby faced in this film, but otherwise exactly the same, like he just got a little bit sharper in the intervening 30 years. Yeah, so, paul Rudd big fan. It is based on kind of a retelling of Jane Austen's Emma.
Speaker 1:Oh, and I just recently found out that Amy Heckerling, who was the writer and director, she had done Fast Times at Ridgemont High, which I've never actually seen. You know, she was interested in doing another teen film, but she didn't want an unhappy kid and the studio executives, they didn't want her to do a movie about the nerds, they wanted someone who was popular, and so she thought back to how much she enjoyed Emma, because I don't know if you've read Emma, no, that's not what I've read. Okay, so Emma is this very privileged, kind of spoiled young woman, but she has this good heart and she is just very like a happy go lucky person, and so she does things that are not necessarily great, but always from a good place. She doesn't recognize her own privilege and that can cause people to be hurt sometimes, but again, she doesn't mean anything by it and the story is a little bit about her growth and her becoming a better person is a little too strong, but growing into her good heart and she's a very sunny character. So Amy Heckerling was like okay, what if we put that character in Beverly Hills in current times, 1995.
Speaker 1:I really, really, as I said, it was geared specifically towards me. I was exactly the right age. It was very, very funny. It was a sweet romantic comedy and it took being a teenager seriously in a way that I really liked. I really appreciated it at the time. I also have a very personal reason. Our stepfather got really offended by the trailers showing Alicia Silverstone going as if when a boy tries to put his arm around her, and I remember him saying like when he lived in California that was how the women treated him and how it really bothered him. And so I liked this film, in part because it was just like it shows that she's absolutely correct in saying like get off of me. Unfortunately, I watched it again last night and Unfortunately.
Speaker 2:I really think we should rename this podcast to Tracey and Emily. Destroy their Childhoods.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there's still some loveliness in there. It still passes the Bec Del Test. It's still a very fluffy movie in that the stakes are never that high and everything turns out okay and that's lovely. But it hasn't aged that well in a lot of ways. So I kind of want to talk a little bit about what hasn't aged well, particularly surrounding the idea of consent, what hasn't aged well in terms of privilege and language. And then there is a gay character, and what was maybe progressive at the time is now feels a little squeaky, and so I kind of want to talk about all of that and kind of like dive into what works and what doesn't in this film.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool. So well, let's start, since I don't remember at all, like what's the basic plot line.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Cher Horowitz is at the time? Oh, she's Jewish. They never say.
Speaker 2:Okay, but Horowitz.
Speaker 1:But Horowitz Jewish or.
Speaker 2:German.
Speaker 1:And her father is Mel Horowitz. Melvin Horowitz, yeah, okay, played by Dan Hedea, who is of Jewish descent. So who?
Speaker 2:knows.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay. So Cher Horowitz is, when we meet her, 15 years old. She's the daughter of a widower, mel, who is a litigator. He's a big litigator. She describes him as he gets paid $500 an hour to argue with people. But he can argue with me for free because I'm his daughter and he's a very scary litigator. So even they're made Lucy is terrified of him. She runs away from him when she sees him. Her mother died when she was a baby in a freak liposuction accident or something like that, and she's one of the most popular kids in school, her best friend, dionne. They're friends because Dionne also knows what it's like to have people who are jealous of her, and they're both named for important singers from yesteryear.
Speaker 2:Oh, so Dionne is named after Dionne Warwick.
Speaker 1:Yes. So Dionne has a boyfriend named Murray who they kind of argue all the time. Cher has made it clear that she thinks it's that high school boys are not worth her time. There is a new girl who comes to school named Ty, who is kind of dressed a little frumpily and the first thing she does is she, she and I did not understand this at the time. She's like I really can't go for some herbal refreshments and they're like we don't have tea but there's a Coke machine. So Ty was kind of a stoner. Ty immediately meets and likes a boy named Travis Birkenstock who is the school stoner. But Cher tells her no, he is not good enough for you. You need to date one of the popular boys. And so Cher does a makeover for Ty and like gives her all new clothes, rinses out the pink coloring she has in her hair and like tries to improve her. And that is straight from the Jane Austen.
Speaker 1:Cher has a sort of stepbrother named Josh. Early on Mel says to Cher your brother is coming for dinner, just like why you haven't been married to his mother for years and it only lasts a couple weeks. And he says we divorce wives, not children. And so Josh is welcome in their home anytime. He hangs out a lot.
Speaker 1:That is Paul Rudd. He is about three, four years older than Cher. He's in college and he is a do-gooder type. When we first see him, he's wearing an Amnesty International shirt and listening to Complaint. Rock is the way that Cher puts it. Josh tells Cher that she's kind of shallow and she's like no, no, I'm trying to make the world better for other people. So, for instance, she gets a bad grade from her teacher, mr Hall, who was played by Wallace Sean Vassini, and she tries to argue her way into a better grade which succeeds with all the other teachers but not with Mr Hall. And so she's like what can I do to get him to give better grades? And she realizes he's 37. He's single. He's making like minor duckets in this thankless job. What he needs is a point fest.
Speaker 2:That's what Cher says. Cher says At 16? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh. So she decides to try to. She engineers a romance between Mr Hall and Ms Geist, who is her, I think, english teacher and who is also very much a do-gooder. She does kind of a much-do-about-nothing, like, oh, I heard Ms Geist said this about you. And then she puts a rose and a note with a quote Shakespeare quote in Ms Geist's mailbox in the office. A couple of different things like that. She gives that as her proof to Josh, like, hey, I'm helping two lonely teachers find love. She's like yeah, I'm sure it's for your benefit. And then he meets Ty and she's like look, I'm bringing her under my wing. And he again is like not really. So Cher tries to encourage Ty to date a boy named Elton. This is again straight out of Emma.
Speaker 1:It was Mr Elton who was a clergyman, which is why. So Tracy and I just recently talked about Pride and Prejudice and we were talking about Mr Collins and there's some aspects of it that feel very real, and we were talking I know that Jane Austen was never married, but she did have one proposal. It was from a clergyman, it was after she would have been on the shelf, so to speak, and so it was like her last chance at marriage and she accepted him the night that he had proposed. She slept on it. The next morning, said nope, never mind. And I believe that that clergyman must have been awful because all the clergyman Mr Collins in Pride and Prejudice, mr Elton in Emma are awful. So Elton actually is not interested in Ty, just as Mr Elton was not interested in and I cannot remember, I think it was Harriet was the name of Emma's protege he is actually interested in Cher. They're at a party, they engineer something.
Speaker 1:So that Elton engineer something, so that he's giving Cher a ride home and he pulls over and is trying to kiss her and she's saying no, no, I'm trying to get you together with Ty. He's like why would I be with Ty? You and I make sense. Me and Ty don't make sense. You know who my father is and he will not take no for an answer.
Speaker 1:Literally Like he keeps trying to kiss her and she gets out of the car and then he tries once to get her back in the car and then he speeds away. She's then held at gunpoint and she calls Whoa, yeah, yeah, so it's a guy robs her. They make a joke of it Like he takes her cell phone and they takes her her purse and then he says, lie down on the ground while I leave. And she's like and she's wearing a designer dress. She's like this isn't a liar. He's like on a what. She's like it's a really important designer. And he's like I will shoot you in the head, lie down. So she lies down. She's most upset about the dress, which is kind of like shown as proof that she's shallow. And so she goes to a pay phone and the only person she can think up to call to get her is Josh. So, um, is her dad? Does she know her dad has already called her and told her you have to be home in 20 minutes, or else Because she has afraid.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see, okay, yeah, classic, she needs shenanigans.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Josh happens to be have a girl over at his dorm and so the girl and Josh come pick up share. Her name is Heather. Heather is arguing with Josh about something and ends with it's just like Hamlet said to the unknown self be true. And share says Hamlet didn't say that and like this girl is like clearly judging share, she's like I think I remember my Hamlet correctly and share says well, I remember Mel Gibson correctly and he didn't say it, polonius did. So we're starting to see like Josh recognizes there's more to share than meets the eye. Share has to tell Ty about what Elton did Was.
Speaker 2:Ty into Elton. Ty was devastated. Oh, she was into Elton.
Speaker 1:She was. Yes, and it's not that she was. It was that her new friends who were being so nice to her were kept pushing her sort of thing. But yeah, and she's not quite 16. Yeah, yeah, at that point it gets to be where Ty becomes more popular than shared us at school. There's a couple things happening that that caused that to happen.
Speaker 1:And then a new boy comes to school. His name is Christian, and share, who had been wanting to like find a boy to help tie it over her heartbreak is like well, I guess there's no problem with me finding love too. She's really into Christian. She has him come over to her house like they go to a party together. When he comes over to her house it's just the two of them and she is planning for this to be her losing her virginity. And halfway through the evening he runs away.
Speaker 1:When she's talking to Dion, her friend, about it in front of Murray, dion's boyfriend, he's. He lets them know that Christian is gay, the way that it's. He describes it like shares talking about it and Murray like busts out laughing. And then he says he's a friend of Dorothy. He's a disco dancing. Asked a while reading Streisand listening and like so Ty then tells share that she's into Josh. Ty is into Josh, josh the brother, the brother the sort of yeah, paul Rudd because he's been very kind to her, because he's a nice guy and not nice guy TM, but nice guy Ty and share get into an argument because share is like defensive of the idea that Ty has has a crush on Josh. Not good enough for.
Speaker 1:Josh yeah, she doesn't say that she's actually very like. Do you really think that you'd be a good fit for him? She then realizes that she has a crush on on Josh. During that time, travis, the stoner kid meets up with share, who has decided to head the Pismo Beach disaster relief team. That's a made up disaster, okay, because she's decided she wants to to have a makeover of her soul, and so she's. She's like getting all this stuff and using her, her popularity, for a good cause.
Speaker 1:When Travis comes, like they're, they're gathering everything from canned goods to like to housewares. And he brings his old bongs and says you know, I'm giving these away, but far be it from me to stop anyone else from enjoying. And then he apologizes for something that happened at the party and because he's in, he's now in a 12 step program, he says, and he now, being sober, he's finding it's, it's really clarifying his skateboarding. And he invites share to see him at a skateboarding thing I don't know what you'd call it Anyway. So share and Ty meet up there. They both apologize to each other and sparks fly between Travis and Ty and share realizes she doesn't, she doesn't have to worry about Ty being in love with Josh Movie comes to an end when Josh and share share their feelings for each other.
Speaker 1:And then the very final scene. You see them like, they get together, they kiss and then share says you know what happens next. And you see a bride in a groom. You're like what? And she's like no, I'm only 17 or 16, whatever it is. And this is, this is California, not Kentucky. I'm like hmm, and then you zoom in and it's miss, miss Geist and Mr Hall getting married, and share is actually one of the bridesmaids. And so the end of the film is the three girls. So share, ty and Dion among the other people trying to get the bouquet. So there's a lot there.
Speaker 2:All right, where do you want to start?
Speaker 1:Let's start with consent, because it's the. That was the thing that really bothered me, as I, as I mentioned, like personally because of the way our father responded to like that moment in the trailer, I was like annoyed and loved the film. What happens when you see her say as if is she's walking on campus at her high school and this boy comes over and grabs her, puts his arm around her shoulder and goes to kiss her on the cheek, I think and she pushes him off and goes as if, which she has every right to do. And that reaction of as if as if I would be interested in you is perfectly reasonable for someone who was so transgressed her boundaries, sure, and Cher is always kind-hearted Like. She's not doing this because he's not like her. He's doing this because he's being a jerk Transgressed her boundary right.
Speaker 2:It's not because he's unworthy of love or attention. It's because he yeah. It's about his action, not his being yeah.
Speaker 1:So the problem is the scene where Elton is giving her the ride home and then kisses her against her will twice, like she makes it clear no, I'm not interested in you, I was trying to get you with Ty, no, and she gets out of the car. So Cher does a voiceover throughout the film and after she's robbed and she's going to find the pay phone, she says like sexually assaulted, abandoned, robbed, and now I had to get home, or something like that. The thing is the way that the voiceover is given. It is played as a joke that she would use the term sexually assaulted Like that she is overreacting.
Speaker 2:She's exaggerating what happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is like that really bothered me a lot, because Elton has her in his car and he is not listening to her and he has two or three times reached for her to kiss her when she has made it clear that she is not interested. And in 1995, I know we considered that like whatever it's you know, so it was a normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that really Doesn't age well, it's different.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, especially when you think about, like what lessons that gave 16 year old Emily about what was acceptable, just as the cost of being female Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then the other thing that really hit wrong particularly because of how much I love this actor and I loved this character is Cher calls Josh at his dorm and you hear the phone ring and you see legs like panning up as like they're both dressed, but what you hear is Josh say, oh, come on to Heather, the girl he has at his dorm in his dorm room. Oh, like he's coercing her, mm-hmm, and no idea, no idea what that's actually supposed to be.
Speaker 2:But considering what just happened, yeah, yeah, it's kind of ugly and just Certainly the implication is there, even if that, like there are other contexts in which I mean he could have been saying like oh, come on, hamlet is a good play. Like don't, don't bag on Hamlet. But given context, that does seem to be sort of what we're meant to.
Speaker 1:Well, I think there's like kissing noises too In that moment. Even more so then. Yeah, so, and you know, flirting while kissing like, oh, come on, you can't believe that that is true. Yeah, whatever, but just implications not great. So that that really had me a little bit concerned. So there are two lines in this film that are so funny that I one of them I don't know if it's still funny, but they, like it, always cracked me up in the 90s. When Christian comes to pick and share up, he does not make a good first impression on her father.
Speaker 2:He's the turns out to be gay guy.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and he's got a very like James Dean kind of vibe going. Well, no, james Dean's very like, he's very well dressed. And he comes in and he's like nice pile of breccia, got here to share his father and share his father says do you drink? And Christian goes no, I'm good, he's like no. I'm asking you if you drink. Do you think I'm offering a drink to the underage driver who's taking my teenage daughter out? So Cher comes down. She's wearing a dress that is very her dad calls it. It looks like underwear. It's short, it's very form fitting and he's like put something on over it. She's like, oh, I was just going to, and what she puts on is like sheer. So but anyway, as she's going to get the top, the dad says something along the lines of as for you, you've got a 45 and a shovel. I doubt anyone would miss you, which I thought was hilarious in 1995. But it's like, and he said something like if anything bad happens to my daughter or something like that, but Wow, yeah, but again hits different in 2024.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So Dress of gun violence always funny yeah.
Speaker 1:The other aspect. So there's two other things about consent that I wanted to talk about. One is how the character of Christian is handled. So there are a couple of things where other people see so he takes her to a party where there's dancing and other people see like he's dancing with her, but then kind of dancing with a guy. And then there's, and Josh sees this and sees him like there's a girl comes over and puts her hand on his, on his shoulder, while he's getting a drink from at the bar and he like, like Pushing her away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, moves it, and then is talking to the bartender like you know, flirting basically with the bartender, who's a guy, and so all Cher seizes him removing the girl's hand, thinking like oh, he's so into me. And then Josh sees these other interactions, so like there are hints that he is gay, that she's just kind of not naive exactly, but just isn't picking up one. She's missing, missing. So how Murray knows that he's gay is not clear. But I think the movie is trying to suggest like if you weren't naive you'd know, because he brings home, like when he comes to her house he brings Spartacus and I can't remember the other one but Tony Curtis films. When we first meet him he's reading a book by William S Burroughs and he asked her she likes Billie Holiday and like some of these are like. Ok, I know that is a marker, but are these others? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I will say another line that is actually funny is she's like, so maybe it's for the best? And this is before Murray tells her that he's gay. She's like maybe it's for the best. He does dress better than I do, so what would I bring to the relationship? But that struck me as a little bit well, it's handled so differently than how it would be handled today. For one thing, I feel like today's teenagers like a 16-year-old in 2024, would have a better sense of the fact that gay people exist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean our whole society has been queered in the best possible way since 1995. I mean we were still in the middle of Don't Ask, don't Tell in 1995. Yes, you know. So it was not that it's safe but, it's safer, it's safer.
Speaker 1:Especially in Beverly Hills, I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean in 1995, it was not safe for a lot of queer folks to just be out and open and openly acknowledged.
Speaker 1:And there is a point where it makes sense because she's clearly disappointed. When he's leaving, he's like I'm tired, I think I'm going to head home, because he realizes what's going on. And there's a point where he could tell her and doesn't, and he's like we're friends, right, you know, you're my home girl, give me a kiss on the cheek, and he's clearly trying to make her feel better but doesn't come out there, which is perfectly within his rights. But that was something that I found really odd. Was the not odd? It hits different now than it did 30 years ago that he's outed using this string of stereotypes by another character yeah, who's a guy? Yeah, and it's kind of indicated that this is her being naive rather than it being just not something she noticed, which doesn't mean naive. Then the one other thing that I found very odd was so how Ty becomes more popular at school is Christian, cher and Ty are all at the mall. Ty has met two boys, young men, who she's talking to. She's there on the upper level of the mall and she's sitting on the railing and the two boys are above the level, which already that would make me nervous. But sitting there flirting with these two guys who have their arms around her keeping her upright.
Speaker 1:On that we cut to Cher and Christian talking about oh, she's talking to those randos. And then we hear her scream and look over and they are tipping her over oh, wow, yeah, and just being complete assholes. And Christian runs over, gets her off and pushes the guy Like what are you doing? You could have killed someone. This is so not OK. And after that she at school is talking about her near-death experience and the way that Cher's voiceover talks about it really minimizes how awful it was. And then the way that the film has her like talking about her near-death experience, she's like, oh, you just get this spiritual clarity when you're almost dying. And like everyone's like wrapped and really interested and like it minimizes how terrifying that would have been in a way that I just don't think is appropriate. Like she's a kid, yeah, and these boys she was flirting with decided to do something truly traumatic to her.
Speaker 2:And cruel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds to me like, though, one of the things that you said about why you liked it, this film, was that it took being a teenager seriously. What I'm hearing is that, actually, it really minimized some kind of serious things that it depicts. You know, like you said, the stakes are never that high, which I hear is accurate, and also there are these moments where the stakes actually are relatively high for the individuals involved, and then the film, the movie makers, really minimize those stakes, which is a really interesting thing to see on reflection, when one of the things that attracted you to it was the low stakes and the taking the teenage life seriously. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's. The film is partially a satire. I mean it's satirizing like wealthy people, shallow people, it's satirizing teenagers as well, and it's like winking at the audience as it's doing it. But it's also like undercutting it Right by making it clear that's like yeah, that was. That was idiotic of Cher not to realize this and you know those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Well, and to wink at the audience to say like, yeah, she thinks that was sexual assault, but we all know that's just the cost of being female. And to wink at the audience and say, you know she's getting she's trading on her quote, unquote near death experience, when really it was just some guys flirting with her. Yeah, exactly, danger is flirting, mm-hmm which is terrifying.
Speaker 2:And like this is not the only example where that we could probably find, where that is a message we've been given right, like even the he's probably hitting you because he likes you that we tell to little girls, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's pulling on your pigtails because he likes you Exactly Great, so he's causing me pain. Fantastic, thank you.
Speaker 2:And well, because the message in that, in saying that, is that you should be grateful, flattered, yeah yeah, so that was that was.
Speaker 1:I am curious because this line is still so perfectly written that I don't know if it's like so there's a scene where they are in gym class, they're all waiting in line to play tennis, they've got a one of those automatic tennis ball throwers things, and Cher is surprised by it. She's like oh my goodness, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. So the teacher's like all right, fine, deon, you're up. And Deon says I have a note from my tennis coach that has asked me not to do anything that would interrupt his teaching of me. So it's usually like fine, all right, amber. And Amber is the closest thing to an antagonist. She just she doesn't like Cher and is kind of like low-key mean to her sometimes. And so Amber says my plastic surgeon has told me that I cannot do anything where balls fly at my face. And Deon says well, there goes your social life, oh shit. Roger Ebert described that line as worth the price of admission. He actually, and he said there's a line that I cannot repeat here because of the family newspaper that is worth the price of admission. I'm like it's that one.
Speaker 1:The one other thing I think worth mentioning that I forgot to say at the beginning is the amount of weight and food and exercise talk. That is really Fatphobic. It's fatphobic and it's also like it's disordered. I mean, alicia Silverstone is Alicia Silverstone yeah, she's phenomenally gorgeous and there are. She talks about calories. She talks about like oh, it was really bad. And she's used this as an excuse for why she's acting weird, because it's one of the times when she's like, oh, it's so bad. I had two mochachinos and five peanut M&Ms and this list of foods. They show her exercising with Thai. We need to improve our bodies and our minds. There's quite a bit of stuff like that and it was so normal in 1995.
Speaker 1:I didn't even recall that it was a lot of weight. I didn't even recall that it was in there. Yeah, and like just the normality of a teenage girl. Of course she's worried about her weight, of course she's thinking about her food. Yeah, the scene where she's trying to figure out, like when she decides Mr Hall needs a girlfriend, she's like all right, who wants staff? And so they see her going through the staff, like lounge, where she's like, okay, well, the trolls in the math department are all actually married. And then she sees someone's lunch. She's like, ooh, snickers, which, I'm wondering, was product placement, but it was still just like, oh, I'm sidetracked. And some of that's like, okay, she's a teenager, chocolate, yes, but the way that she talks about food throughout, I don't know, it's just weird.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I want to come back to the balls on her face thing. Yes, because it is funny and also like the more I sit with it, especially thinking about other ways in which, like with the food and the exercise you are describing an impossible expectation right that Alicia Silverstone would be kind of put in such a light that we would I don't know think about her as like denying herself the Snickers and like she thinks that she's going crazy because she had five M&Ms or something. And that in context with that balls joke where Amber's being shamed for being sexually active while we know Cher was planning on losing her virginity to Christian, there is some.
Speaker 1:To be fair, she's actually more, not shamed, but like about being a virgin. So like when Ty first comes to the school, cher says you have something that no one else here has. And she's like, oh, I'm not a virgin. And Cher goes, no, no, no, no, mystique, because you're new here. And then, after she learns that Elton isn't interested in her, she and Deanna and Cher go to cheer her up like they go go get lunch and go to a movie, and so they're like admiring the waiters at this, at this restaurant, and Ty says something like, oh, I don't care if they're muscular or not muscular, as long as there you know what isn't crooked.
Speaker 1:And shares like huh, and Dion says, oh, don't mind, share, she doesn't know. And like your version. And and Dion's like no, no, no, pc term is hymen only challenged. And so they have this long conversation about the fact that she, she hasn't had sex yet, but neither has. Dion was like you know, because shares like you, you're one to talk, dion. She's like whoa, my man is satisfied, but technically I am a virgin.
Speaker 2:So there's some weird stuff in there about so like, okay, all right, so now I have more information. So that reminds me of conversations we had when we talked about Twilight, where we end up in situations where girls are expected to guard their virginity, as in intercourse, and then do other things that they maybe don't want to do, you know to to be hip or popular or because that's the cost of being female. And you know actually, this like, oh, she doesn't know. That goes along with the movie really telling us that if share were more sexually experienced, she would know the Christian was gay as well. Mm-hmm, yeah, and I have to say now I'm certain I have not seen this film.
Speaker 2:Now, now that you've explained the whole plot, I have not seen this film, so I haven't seen it. And it's 30 years old and I'm a little disturbed by this notion that this 16 year old is somehow being shamed or kind of looked down upon because she's not more sexually experienced, because she's 16 and like and it I don't know if, with Dionne saying that what you just shared, like it feels like again where I was going in the first place, that there's this, this impossible expectation that this child should be worldly and sexually knowledgeable but also virginal, and that you know we look at least some people, our stepfather, look down on her, for her, as if in defending her bodily autonomy, but also were she completely obviously overreacted drama queen that she called Elton trying to kiss her sexual assault, like it just it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I will say I really appreciated it. Like in that scene, cher says well, look at it this way, you see how particular I am about my shoes and they only go on my feet. I love that. That's fantastic.
Speaker 1:So like I mean that Amy Hackerling in a lot of ways gave some really good examples for dealing with this, like that is a fantastic response that's a great response yeah, yes and she was working in 1995, so she had to get it made yes, so we see the relationship between Dionne and Murray and they're constantly bickering and it's supposed to be kind of a like like a joke, like a joke that they bicker like an old married couple, although the first thing he says like he keeps calling her woman and she keeps saying, like I've repeatedly asked you not to do that. And he says, is it at that time of the month which, oh yucky. But later on, when Cher is like trying to to improve herself, she's like I noticed how everyone has different strengths, things that are good and so like, like how Christian wants everything to be beautiful and interesting and this, that and the other. And then Murray and Dionne are so considerate of each other when no one's watching, and so it's to be this idea that like they are putting on this performance for other people, but they really are together. And there's a at the at the party. Dionne freaks out because Murray is started shaving his head at the party and she's like this is just before yearbook photos. What am I gonna tell my grandchildren? And then she's like all right, that's it, I'm calling your mother. Which is the hilarious thing is it's Donald Faison is plays Murray.
Speaker 1:He was in scrubs, if that's okay he. I knew this because I watched this movie so many times as a teenager. He's bald the entire time. You just see him with hats on, and I've never seen Donald Faye's on with hair. He always is bald. So what? They have this whole scene and you believe it at the time, but you never see him without a hat other than that scene.
Speaker 2:The actor was bald the whole time. That's funny. Yeah, so did we cover what you wanted to cover? Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:I do want to say there are some things that hold up well, the soundtrack for one. It's a fantastic soundtrack. The final scene is like the very last image is Cher and Josh sharing a kiss at the wedding. It is so hot, seriously. If you get a chance, just watch the last kiss, the last spot, and the film is quotable. It's whether or not those quotes hold up. There's also there's some language. So, for instance, one of the things that Cher does to get Mr Hall and Miss Geist together is she gives him some coffee and she says that she mixed up her lemon snapple with her father's Italian roast that morning, and so does he want it? Maybe Miss Geist would want some, but the way she describes it is like I was a total R word and mixed up the lemon sample. And then there's a. There's a point where I think Ty calls herself a tarred and so, like that, completely slipped on the radar in the in the 90s.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, the fashions are also now part of this is my fashion sense was forged in the fires of 1995. But the the fashion is also really, really amazing. My kid looked really cute in that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's Halloween costume, like I was like oh, this is really adorable. You sure you don't want to wear it? Yeah, no mom.
Speaker 1:So like it's. It's the kind of baby doll dresses paired with that that they're. Cher never pairs them with like Doc Martens, but you see Doc Martens and stuff like that and that was like high socks like me socks, yeah, socks up over the knee, yep, I mean the fashion is also a little bit weird too, because there's a there's very much a sexualizing element of these teen girls and I don't you know watching it this time around. I remember I was thinking, like those skirts are super short, like super short.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super short. Anything else that you want to lift up, that does still hold up.
Speaker 1:I do like the friendships between the three girls is is it's nice to see it does pass the back deltas, as I mentioned. So like you've got the three girls now. They talk about boys a lot, but they also talk about clothes and they talk about test scores and they talk about their parents and you know so that there's they talk about driving, so it does feel like a well rounded. Look at what girl that's. What kind of what I mean about it took teenagers seriously, like they're not one dimensional, even though that is the way people look at Cher. They assume she's one dimensional and she is not. And so the relationships between these three three girls is also like worth looking at, because I don't know how often we get examples of female friendship at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, we really don't. I mean, I think, doing this project with you, I've really started to notice just how often it's like, if we have a female protagonist, then she's like Hermione, like the one girl in the core group, or she's, you know, the not like other girls exceptional character who has no peers like Bell or or like Scully Scully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and that's Cher. She starts off by saying like you know, the opening shot is a whole bunch of like things happening, like kids at a pool party and stuff like that in Beverly Hills, so like super, super wealthy and shares first line. And as voiceover is like I know what you're thinking, is this an oxyma commercial? And then she says but I actually have a way, normal life for a teenage girl. And then they show you the ways that she doesn't, because she is so wealthy, but she doesn't want to be on anything other than a normal teenage girl. She doesn't consider herself to be anything other than a normal teenage girl. And that is refreshing. Yeah, as is.
Speaker 1:I also really appreciate the relationship between Cher and her father. They clearly really love each other. When she she gets a report card and she tells her father it's not ready yet, he's like what do you mean? It's not ready yet. She's like well, I'm using these grades as a jumping off point for negotiation. And so when she finally gets the report card back, she tells him like. He asks like did you do extra credit? Did you? Do you know anything to improve these grades? She's like no, this is entirely based on my power of persuasion and he says honey, I couldn't be more proud than if they were based on real grades, because that's what he does for a living. So their relationship is is. Is this lovely relationship also based on Emma? Because Emma's father is like kind of a miz and throat but like a funny one. It's similar to to Mel.
Speaker 2:The line that you shared about Josh actually I found very poignant. We divorce, not children.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's also really the fact that Josh is always welcome in the Horowitz house is lovely and it's really clear that Mel may be gruff, like the first time he meets. Ty share has her over for dinner and Ty is sitting in Mel's normal seat and shares going. Daddy, this is my friend Ty, and he goes get out of my seat. She looks up and moves over, but the gruffness is like he's got a heart of gold really and Cher knows how to wrap him around her finger. But he also, she also listens to him.
Speaker 1:For instance, like she's she drives even though she doesn't have a license and she has a car their dad bought her even though she doesn't have a license. And he gets like a second notification of three different tickets. She's like that's funny, I don't remember getting a first notification. He's like the ticket is the first notification. I didn't even know he could take it if he didn't have a driver's license. She's like, oh, you can get a ticket anytime. And he says to her like you cannot drive that car unless there is a licensed driver there with you, and so and instead of just going and doing whatever she wants because she could, because he is always busy and all of that and, like she's already been driving without a license, she immediately goes and says all right, josh, come with me, you're a licensed driver with nothing to do. So like it's a lovely dynamic that I really appreciate, especially now as a parent of an almost I mean, I guess he's a teenager, he's 13. Yeah, that give and take, that it shows like a long, lasting, loving parent-child relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, should I try and summarize what we talked about? I will try. It will be invisible to our listeners, but we've been interrupted a couple times, so I will try to remember what we talked about.
Speaker 2:So Clueless with Alicia Silverstone. It passes the back-tail test and it sounds like there's some really positive and well-rounded female characters in this that we can feel good about, but there are also some lessons about the cost of being female in terms of men's attention and what we just have to accept as normal. There's also some kind of what feels weird in 2024 ways of talking about and making assumptions about gay men in particular Probably queer folks in general, though it sounds like it was specifically a gay character.
Speaker 1:And there's also the gym teacher. There's a little bit of a joke about the gym teacher in the long history of female gym teachers. Oh, a lesbian gym teacher.
Speaker 2:It seems like it's oriented yeah, yeah. So some representation around queer folks that doesn't hold up to today's standards. I also heard a bit about disordered eating and attention to the female body that feel unhealthy by today's standards. Some basic stuff around language, the R word that mainstream American culture just had not seen in 1995, but that really stands out today. Let me think, what else did we talk about? I was struck by the impossible situation of sexuality where Sharon and her friends are expected to be sexually knowledgeable but not sexually available, or at least not well, I was going to say at least not for vaginal intercourse. But it's not just that, because the antagonist gets burned for a reputation of oral sex. So there's some just this impossible context for these teenage girls. Good soundtrack, fun, fashion, quotable lines which may or may not hold up 30 years later. What am I forgetting?
Speaker 1:Just a lovely father-daughter relationship, which I mean it would be great if we're a mother-daughter relationship, because we don't get enough of that. But it is based on Emma, which did have the similar sort of dynamic between Emma and Mr Woodhouse, her father.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, have forgotten that piece.
Speaker 1:I didn't name it all that this is based on.
Speaker 2:Jane Austen, In part, actually. That background was really interesting to me, that the movie maker wanted to make another teenage movie but she didn't want an unhappy protagonist.
Speaker 1:Or cynicism. There's a lot of cynicism in movies made for teens or about teens, and so she wanted some sunshine, and that's one of the things that's so charming about the film is that Cher is a lovely kid, in the sense of she really does mean well and she really does want to do better, and all of her missteps come from a good place and are the sorts of things a 16-year-old would need to learn, and so one would presume that 44-year-old Cher out there now is a mensch. She's out there being a mensch and being good to her friends and family and maybe still a little clueless about how her privilege may come across, but disarming people because she wants to help anyway.
Speaker 2:And that was something also that we noted at the end is that her relationships do actually all of them sound pretty genuine, like with Tai, with Dion, with her dad, with Josh. It sounds like they all are, you know, despite coming at them, like Tai in particular, like as you were telling me what happened. That does not sound like a genuine way to approach a friendship. But the fact that they then fight and then make up that sounds actually based in genuine mutual regard.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and even like her, she ends up saying that Christian becomes her favorite shopping buddy, and like when she's thinking of all the good things about her different friends, like I love what she says about him. She wants everything to be beautiful and interesting. You know what a lovely thing to say about a person. And so, yes, there's, there's a genuineness to all of her relationships and even when she messes up, she makes it right. In a way that is, it provides a good example for how to fix when things, when you do things wrong, and provides a good example for for, like, a good hearted apologies and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:All right, well, maybe I'll put it on my watch list.
Speaker 1:It's free on YouTube with ads.
Speaker 2:Okay, so. So next time I am going to bring you my deep thoughts about the Breakfast Club, and I understand that you have some listener comments that you wanted to share. Let's hear them.
Speaker 1:So a couple of listener comments. My friend, eric, who is married to Joanna, said about a Christmas story. Joanna loves this movie, I hate it. To which Joanna responded I keep telling Eric we have a perfect leg lamp front window, but he hates it so much you won't take the bait. And I've seen their front window. It's. She's correct, that would be the perfect front window for the leg lamp. Crystal said about labyrinths. I love this movie as a kid. I definitely need to watch it as an adult. And then she did a crying emoji crying, laughing, which is because, yeah, yes, it sits a little different when you see it as a grown up. Yeah, and then finally, about the Buffy episode. James said I loved this episode. It allowed me to geek out for a bit on one of my favorites and I wholly appreciated the ever expanding viewpoints on the show. It also made me realize that, as we grow up, it's truly disturbing to see how some of our favorite creators have turned into raging assholes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, james.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, listener, if you have some deep thoughts inspired by our deep thoughts, we want to hear it for reals. So we will put a link in the show notes to our reader forum, or you can send us an email, guygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or become a patron. For as little as two bucks a month, you can be part of the inner circle and interact with us on our Patreon page. The link is in the show notes. Until next time. See you next time. Hey, you, yeah you. You're a deep thinker, I can tell. Let's make it official. Head on over to our website, guygirlsmediacom, and make sure you don't miss a single deep thought. You can get me and Emily in your inbox every week. What are you waiting for? Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time. Remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?