Slay it with me: other girls are awesome!
For this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Tracie and Emily welcome Kate Moody, aka The Money Librarian, to share her analysis of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Kate introduces Emily (a Buffy virgin) to the world of vampires, Hellmouths, and why all librarians love Giles. With Kate’s analysis, the sisters put Buffy in her proper place in the pantheon of superheroes, while engaging with the not-so-savory side effects of a romance between a teenage girl and a 200 year old undead killing machine. Also, much side-eye of what Joss Whedon considers to be a “moment of true happiness.”
Pop on your headphones and take a listen!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
Where to find Kate:
Ms. Moody Money
The Money Librarian–YouTube
Follow Kate on Twitter
Slay it with me: other girls are awesome!
For this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Tracie and Emily welcome Kate Moody, aka The Money Librarian, to share her analysis of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Kate introduces Emily (a Buffy virgin) to the world of vampires, Hellmouths, and why all librarians love Giles. With Kate’s analysis, the sisters put Buffy in her proper place in the pantheon of superheroes, while engaging with the not-so-savory side effects of a romance between a teenage girl and a 200 year old undead killing machine. Also, much side-eye of what Joss Whedon considers to be a “moment of true happiness.”
Pop on your headphones and take a listen!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
Where to find Kate:
Ms. Moody Money
The Money Librarian–YouTube
Follow Kate on Twitter
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode of Deep Thoughts, my friend Kate Moody will be sharing her thoughts about Buffy the Vampire Slayer with me and my sister Tracy Guy Decker. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people.
Speaker 1:So I'm very excited this week to welcome my friend, kate Moody. Kate is a former librarian who, after years in the coal mines of academia, is now on a mission to help smart people stop feeling dumb about money by giving them reliable information via her YouTube, one-on-one coaching and sundry online educational services. She believes that by getting good people over our everyday financial stressors that eat up so much of our brain space, we can create massive change for the positive. Whether that's giving to charity, volunteering or just spoiling our pets, kate can help you make money your solution, not your problem. When she wasn't off extolling the virtues of the time value of money, she watched every episode of Buffy, except the body, more times than she can count without the use of a spreadsheet. You can find her on YouTube and Instagram as the Money Librarian and, for extra credit, get her extremely nerdy, humorous weekly emails that will help you grab your Benjamins by the bills at themoneylibrariancom. So, kate, welcome. Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 1:I'm very excited to have you talk about Buffy, in part because this is a cultural phenomenon that I missed. I'm going to blame it on college. Buffy was at its height when I was in college. I had missed the beginning of it, and so by the time I knew that I was missing something, I was intimidated because there was several seasons in and I just didn't know how to get started, and it was back in the day where it was going to take some effort for me to get DVDs of previous seasons. So I know a little bit about it. I saw, and was the only person in North America who liked, the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie oh no, me too. Me too. So I was familiar with the concept and I have seen an episode or two. I saw the episode Hush because one of my friends was like oh my God, you have to see this.
Speaker 1:They were right, yeah, but I know very little about the show Tracy. What do you know about Buffy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was a big Buffy fan but I did not watch Buffy While it's a Broadcast when I was living in Chicago, which would have been between 2000 and 2007,. At some point it must have been after 04, because I met Hillary around then. My friend Hillary was a big, big Buffy fan and sort of encouraged, somehow convinced me to borrow the first season and I was instantly hooked and, much like my Portlandia-esque experience with Battlestar Galactica, I just got sucked into a black hole of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer and Angel too, the spin-off series with David Boyanus. And yeah, I just loved it.
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking in the first season I went on a date with someone who was also a Buffy fan and I remember saying like it's kind of a weird Chastity Parable and he was like, uh no, because I was still in like the first season, where it attitudes towards that. It kind of is a Chastity Parable in the first season but attitudes towards sex and sexual pairings change a lot over the series. So anyway, I'm excited to hear some deep thoughts about the series as a whole. I definitely experienced it differently than a lot of Buffy fans because I didn't have to wait. I totally binged it over a matter of weeks. But, kate, that's like my experience with it. What's at stake? Why are you so into Buffy? Why does it matter?
Speaker 3:Well, first off, thank you guys so much for having me on. I'm super excited to talk about Buffy because I just absolutely love the show so much. I had a similar experience to you, tracy and Emily. I actually loved the movie so much in the 90s that when the TV show came out, I was like what's this bullshit? I'm not going to watch some TV show. That movie was awesome and so like.
Speaker 3:Despite the fact that I love the show now, I refuse to watch it when it was first on, because I didn't know that it was the same show runner and creator, joss Whedon, who had made all of it. So I just thought that it was some money grab by the new WB network and it was a mid-season replacement actually, which is why the first season is only 12 episodes long, so like I didn't watch it when it was first on. I was in college as well when it was on, and then, when I graduated from college, I moved away and then came back home after a couple of years and my sister owned all the DVDs, and so this is like I don't know 2005-ish and she was in grad school, so the DVDs were at my parents' house and I watched them at my parents' house and I was able to binge them late. It had ended at that point and then I became obsessed and I watched all the DVDs over and over again and I watched all of the behind the scenes and when they have the writers talking through the episodes and whatnot, to get as much Buffy as I possibly could, and it just clicked with me. I think, for so many reasons, that it for the same reasons that it clicks with so many people.
Speaker 3:It's not just a show about high school drama, but there is a lot of all the growing pains that you can really relate to with friends and school and diverse relationships and whatnot. But if it was just that, that would be boring because I'm no longer in high school, right. And so then you've got the monsters, which is fun. But I wouldn't want to show just about monsters, probably because that would be boring. But the mix of the two had just enough relatable, just enough supernatural, plus it's smart, it is funny and it's not just either high or lowbrow jokes. It's like this great mix of the two.
Speaker 3:I've been rewatching it recently and this joke that I had never clocked before because it just goes by so fast they're talking about going to see a movie where a monkey gets into the NHL and so he's playing on a hockey league and Xander just goes at one point out. Oh, is that based on the check off? And it just flew past me during the first eight times that I watched it and that's a solid joke. But then there's also the references to like Kledis' slackjawed yokel, and I could quote the entirety of the Simpsons, from seasons one through about 14 or so. So it just hit me on every level.
Speaker 3:And then you have the fact that it very much passes the Bechdel test. It's got a strong superhero in, or superhero in whatever, but strong superhero, and she's not one dimensional like so many superheroes who just go out and save the world. She's very multi dimensional and I think that's something we can really dig into about it being a feminist show and actually that creates a very multi dimensional character versus so many of the superheroes where it's like they're just some vigilante because something, very something that is kind of boring not boring, what's what I'm looking for? Just sort of an overused trope happened and now they fight bad guys as a vigilante the refrigerated, the refrigerated woman.
Speaker 2:We actually have talked about that.
Speaker 3:Yes, like you know who cares? I don't care. And then the and then that's it. That's all they do. They're rich and they fight Like that's boring.
Speaker 3:Buffy cared about her friends, she cared about having a social life, she cared about her relationships, and it was just a really well rounded show. So I think that's what struck me. And then, you know, I watched it so many times because of all of those layers, because of those jokes that fly past you. There's a lot going on, and so every time you watch it you kind of get a new take on it.
Speaker 3:So I want to also say that I have such rose colored glasses when it comes to this show. I'm like how can I, how can I have critical thoughts about this show? I love it so much, it can do no wrong. And obviously it does a lot wrong, you know, especially looking back on it. So I think there's enough drama, there's enough comedy, there's enough things that are relatable, but there's enough supernatural things. All of this great mix just make it the show that you want to grab onto and just love, love, love, love, love. And Emily, seriously, like, I don't want to. Like, there's so many plot points I do not want to discuss because I'm like oh, but Emily needs to watch the whole show and it'll be ruined for her if she doesn't watch this show and honestly, kate, at this point it's 2023.
Speaker 2:I think it's her own lookout.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have friends who are obsessed and so I kind of already well, I've been exposed to the spoilers and I don't remember them. So I think you're fine.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay, I just when my husband, when we were first dating many, many years ago, he started watching Buffy because of me and at one point I mentioned, oh, angel's a vampire. And he like what? Angel's a vampire? I was like, oh my God, you haven't gotten to that yet. Like, come on, that's like I don't know. Episode eight, episode nine, yeah, exactly so. So I think maybe that's why I worry that I will ruin it.
Speaker 1:I also I have a tendency to. It's not like I like spoilers, but I don't mind them like other people do, in part because what I like is how you get there and just because I spend as much time as I do thinking about stories and story construction and stuff like that that very rarely can I be surprised by a spoiler. Well, very rarely can I be surprised by a story. The only thing I can think of that actually was spoiled for me recently was the ending of us, the Jordan Peele movie, because I would not have guessed the ending.
Speaker 2:That movie was so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think for Emily too, like because she's so into story construction sometimes, like having the spoiler in advance allows her to do additional like analysis as she's watching.
Speaker 3:So anyway, suffices to say no worries.
Speaker 2:Don't worry about that, okay.
Speaker 3:Well, and part of the reason too, that the show is so good is that oh, there's a joke I heard is Joss Whedon and George RR Martin walk into a bar and everyone you love dies. Like it's kind of stuck on to your because character, major characters, are killed off in the show, which just kind of raises the stakes in a way that most shows don't dare to do.
Speaker 1:Yep, it's accurate. Well, let's start with. Can you just give us like just the basic background, like what the story is about and who, like you know, a couple of the most most important characters are?
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, like, how does one not know? So, alright, the basic premise is that there is one vampire slayer born into each generation and it's a teenage girl and she gets these supernatural powers and she's supposed to go and slay vampires and all kinds of random beasties that are out there. You know, don't think about it too much One woman in the entire world and sure the hell mouth is in California. Okay, fine, and all the beasts come to her. Instead of being anywhere, the slayer is not. That makes a lot of sense, anyways. So she's in high school in Sunnydale, california, which is one of those towns where, like, the murder rate is so high, you wonder why anybody moves there anymore.
Speaker 3:But fine, okay, people move to Sunnydale, california and she has a quote watcher who is Giles the librarian, who's one of the best characters on TV, former librarian. So when I was in library science school there was a lot of Giles love. She's got a librarian watcher who trains her and he's sort of her mentor and ends up becoming a father figure. Then she also has her friends Willow and Xander. Willow is the brainy one, xander is the heart and they form the quote, unquote scooby gang and every week there's a monster of the week, but there are major season arcs Every single season.
Speaker 3:There is a big bad that they have to fight throughout the season, which I think was also something different about Buffy, because at the time before really you could binge, there weren't as far as I'm aware, there weren't a lot of TV shows that had major season arcs the way that Buffy does, and that is the basic premise of the show. But of course there's a lot of side characters and guest characters and whatnot who support her throughout her time. Most notably is Angel, the aforementioned vampire who you don't know, who's a vampire for the first eight episodes or so and then later on. The vampire who supports her is Spike and in the fandom there is a huge Angel versus Spike controversy, but everybody should know that Spike is better, so I don't know why there's such controversy.
Speaker 1:So is this like Team Edward versus Team Jacob in Twilight, kind of thing?
Speaker 3:Sort of, except Team Jacob is so much obviously the better team. I don't know why again such controversy, because he's not anyways. I won't go down that rabbit hole either, but they're very different. Yes, you could make that comparison and people have Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, fair enough, I would be Team Spike, considering the fact that you are so strongly Team Jacob, which is how I was as well. So I'm like, all right, so not necessarily.
Speaker 3:There is this. I can see why people go Team Angel, but I'm just so weirded out by the 200 and something year old guy being interested in a 15 year old girl. Bikes not young, he's? No, he's not young either, but at least when he gets together. But he's not young, but he gets together with a fully formed, adult human, whereas Angel is actually attracted to a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't, I can't argue with you. Yeah, I mean, but she's still like, she's still super young. If you're hundreds of, if you're hundreds of years old, like I don't really see the difference between 15 and 20.
Speaker 3:Frankly, no no, and for many years now I we were talking about fan fanfic before, but like I want the fanfic or some vampire's novel where a vampire actually goes out and goes to like retirement communities and tries to date like 80, 90 year old women.
Speaker 2:Because they actually have life.
Speaker 3:Yes, Because they would actually be interesting to somebody who is that old. Yes and not the yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Yeah, um, spike has sort of a Billy Idol. Like blonde one, right, yeah, yeah, he's got a Billy Idol vibe and I don't find it. I don't find it attractive.
Speaker 1:So where's you?
Speaker 2:might, when he was young, in Buffy, I mean this is not bones, okay. He's got a very different vibe than Agent Booth and I honestly like when have I ever turned down a pretty face? I mean like you are a sucker for a handsome man.
Speaker 1:Oh my God. Like that is the running theme through a deep thoughts. It's like I was like oh my God, I had such a crush on that actor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I was so hot. Spike like. I don't normally go for blondes, but he could get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why it's not natural blonde too, which I think is hard to be appeal Anyway. Okay, so let's dig a little deeper. You were like, how can I have critical thoughts about this show that I love, but we invited you to, so where did you go first? When you were like, oh, I guess I can?
Speaker 3:So I think on the surface level it's so easy to get into what you were talking about, like the Chastity Parable and why not? So I feel like that has to be talked about. Even though it's talked about, a lot is so.
Speaker 3:In a season two, buffy ends up having sex with Angel.
Speaker 3:She loses her virginity to Angel and because of the quote, one moment of true happiness, which ew? He loses his soul, becomes evil and goes on a killing spree which maybe on the one level, like a lot of people could relate to, is you know that you're dating somebody and then they kind of take a turn and they're not the person that you thought that they were, perhaps not on the killing spree thing, but like it's so young. Everything about the Angel relationship is just yucky to me at this point because he is so old and she is so young. But that's really disturbing. The idea of, first of all, that sex is just this perfect moments of happiness thing and then that because she has sex with him, he's now completely evil and goes on a killing spree, and so then they can never have sex again because of the true moment of happiness and he'll lose his soul. It's just a dumb plot line and it looks especially bad from a 2023 perspective, like I don't think it ever really held much water, but yeah.
Speaker 2:And the the. The conceit is that he has been cursed by Roma people actually because he turned one of their young women into a vampire, and so he's been cursed.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's also.
Speaker 2:Well the curse was that he gave him his soul back so that he could like sit with the like evilness that he had done and actually like have a conscience. Because they gave him his soul back, because vampires lose their soul. But the curse will be broken if he ever experiences happiness. And then he and Buffy they know we mustn't, we mustn't for like a you know, a season and a half, and then they finally succumb to hormones and have sex and he has that perfect moment. And then, as Kate says, I got so many thoughts.
Speaker 3:I want to hear all of them, because I just like at this point I just fast forward to the Buffy Angels bits. I'm like, oh God, I'm so tired of you too.
Speaker 1:So at this point she's what.
Speaker 3:16 more or less.
Speaker 2:That's my first, I think, maybe 1617 1617 somewhere in the junior and high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, just do Okay, so he has a soul, so he has a conscience. So you'd think he'd be like, yeah, I can wait a few years, which is going to feel like a finger snap, until she's at least a full adult. So that's my first thought, eww. Second, like that's perfect happiness.
Speaker 2:Like I. Yeah, apparently orgasm is perfect happiness. According to Joss Whedon, that's I'm not okay with that.
Speaker 1:No, well, and like, yeah, well, I'm. So we were talking a little bit before about how Tracy and I are right now are a little obsessed with good omens, and one of the things that I have really appreciated is the asexual community talking about having some like ace representation in the love story between Azir Fel and Crowley and just thinking like, you know, if you're describing orgasm as perfect happiness, that is, it cuts off so much human experience. That is like true joy, you know, like watching the sunrise with someone you love.
Speaker 1:I mean like I just that doesn't make any sense, and it would actually make more sense, thinking story construction wise, where he'd be like no, no, no, no, we can't. But then they have this like perfect day and watch the sunset together. I don't know something, and I don't know if he can be in the daylight or not. I'm off at that kind of vampire.
Speaker 3:Okay, now they get loosely goosey with the daylight as the seasons go on.
Speaker 1:But yeah, gotcha, gotcha, but, but, but yeah. So, like you know, if he was thinking that it was like you know that would be perfect happiness if I experience orgasm with someone I love but it actually ends up being like, oh my goodness, we had a perfect day together and then he turns evil. That could actually be really interesting. Like you know what you think perfect happiness is and it actually is something completely different. It's just so reductive. It's a very reductive, very heteronormative view of what joy is. So, yeah, I can see why you fast forward through that and then to then have that be on Buffy, for her to feel bad and responsible for like oh no, he's on a killing spree and like he doesn't just kill, like you know, disposable crew members, he kills people we care about In like horrible ways.
Speaker 2:That like the one, the one I'm thinking of when he kills Jenny that's her name, right, jenny? Like he doesn't even feed, he just kills her for the sheer.
Speaker 3:And then uses her body to really torture Giles, who we also love. So not only do we lose one character, but now we watch another character that we love go through a terrible situation and heartbreak. There it's yeah, it's yucky. I love your idea, emily, though Like that would have been so much better and so more and more meaningful, and it really does seem like I think Joss Whedon was in his late 20s, early 30s at this point and like what does that say about him? That in his mind he was like well, this is the best thing ever. That's the only time I'm happy.
Speaker 1:Well, that to me is like. That speaks to how few like non-white male, cisgendered, heterosexual men are in the writing room, you wonder? Yeah, Actually, could we talk a little bit about Joss Whedon, because this stuff has come to light recently. So I feel like, because I missed Buffy, I did watch. He was oh gosh, now I can't think of the name of it.
Speaker 2:He did Firefly, firefly.
Speaker 1:Firefly yeah, that's the. So he did Firefly and, like there were a couple others, and I have some complicated feelings about Firefly as well, which at some point Tracey you and I should talk about it. But I don't feel the same kind of level of betrayal that I know, like my best friend who loved Buffy and who loved Firefly, felt. But I know he's kind of come out as like the kind of misogynist who uses feminism as a shield sort of thing. Maybe I'm a little off on that, but, like I know, some of the things that were happening on the set with Buffy was a little gross. Kate, do you have any comments about that?
Speaker 3:So I tried to do some research on this and it's super hard because Joss Whedon is now a very powerful man in Hollywood, like a very powerful man. So I think that there's it could be something where there's just a lot of people not talking enough about what he's done because they're worried for their careers and understandably so. So like, yeah, and it sounds like he Charisma Carpenter got fired from Angel because she got pregnant. It sounds like he created sort of a toxic work environment. He would yell at people and there's some things that they're like oh, he can't be in a room alone with Michelle or with Sarah or something like that. But nobody is really willing to say he did this or he said this specifically, other than Charisma Carpenter, who said I got fired because I was pregnant and as she did a move, as that is at the time, I mean I don't know if there was legal recourse for her or whatnot.
Speaker 3:I mean it sounds like he's just an asshole and who I think he thinks he's a feminist.
Speaker 3:I really do. I think he, on a logical sort of conscious level, he says he believes that women are just smart, just as strong as men, but I don't think he's really done any work to sort of figure out more about feminism and what it takes to help women. And so then, on his subconscious level, the same part of him that thought, oh yeah, sex is the perfect moment of happiness, also treats women that way, and so it seems like he's just an asshole and a powerful man and a guy who makes a lot of money for Hollywood. Therefore he's gonna have a lot of power. As long as he keeps making money for Hollywood, they're not gonna turn him in, and if he's an asshole, then that just makes him a jerk. But if he has done things, then he needs to be like brought to jail, and it's just as far as I was able to find. He hasn't done anything criminal. And then there's also a lot of allegations that he was having extramarital affairs and that he was having affairs with people who worked under him.
Speaker 2:You know which? That's what I had heard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which that then creates bad power dynamics Like that is that maybe is Especially?
Speaker 2:in a yeah. Yeah, especially if it's already a toxic work environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, so it's. The power dynamics is part of what I'm reacting to in the idea that's like what I've heard that makes me feel like maybe not intentionally, but using feminism as a shield to cover, like this kind of latent misogyny. Part of my complicated feelings about Firefly have to do with the episode where there is a young woman who, it turns out is a scam artist but she pretends to be this innocent young woman who is married to.
Speaker 2:Mrs Reynolds, our Mrs.
Speaker 1:Reynolds, yes, and the way that that is excused and I cannot think of his name. The leaf on the wind guy, wash, wash, yeah, wash, is saying, is trying to excuse it to his wife saying like hey, I've been to a place where they juggled yeast, you know, like this is just culture and that level of excusing the power dynamic problem in Firefly. Similarly with the treatment of the companion whose name I've forgotten.
Speaker 2:Inara.
Speaker 1:Yes, inara. So, and then that the power dynamic between a 200 year old vampire and a 17 year old girl, especially this sense that, okay, because she has had sex with him, he has now become a monster, and so putting the onus, this responsibility on her in a way that I feel like, often is what you get where like, oh well, you know, she was dressing provocatively, she knew what she was in for.
Speaker 2:It turns her into a sort of vagina dentata, you know, like a sort of like. I mean, it doesn't emasculate him in some ways the opposite, in a machismo kind of understanding of masculinity, but it does transform him in a way that is kind of against his will. It's like he didn't choose, like he would have chosen to keep the soul, one we are led to believe, I think. And so your point about her sexuality is a weapon, when in fact she's a 17 year old kid yeah, yeah, who's in love with her boyfriend?
Speaker 3:who should know better?
Speaker 1:And particularly like once you've lived 200 years. Is it really that much to wait, at least until she's like a legal adult?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you feel like nothing, yeah. And then also I was gonna say also there's some gender stuff too. Like her later boyfriend is an army guy and he views himself as a very strong and masculine guy and he feels very emasculated by having a girlfriend who's stronger than him and he feels like he should be able to keep up with her and whatnot. And it's like she is a superhero. She's literally a superhero. There's nothing you can do to keep up with her.
Speaker 3:And they're really sympathetic to his perspective and it's like no his perspective should be my girlfriend's a superhero and she deans to date me. That's awesome. Like that should be his perspective on this too. So there's a lot of things.
Speaker 1:If you wouldn't be sympathetic to someone who was like my girlfriend shouldn't be smarter than me. Yeah, you know, like that is not something that you could be sympathetic to, or at least one would hope not.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 1:But the idea, and like part of what's interesting and exciting about the idea of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, is that you've got someone who people underestimate because she's a blonde cheerleader in high school who's named Buffy, so you think of her as a marshmallow at best and she can kick ass. Like that's awesome, like that's this kind of like reclaiming of power, but it like gives with one hand and takes away with the other by being sympathetic to this soldier who's like well, she shouldn't be stronger than me.
Speaker 1:And not letting her have typical high school, like I mean. You know, losing your virginity at 17 is can be fraught, but not that kind of fraud, Right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't result in the like the death of one of your teachers.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not if you're doing it right anyway. Well, I think so. It feels like it's. Oftentimes we'll see that with media with strong female characters, where it wants to have its cake and eat it too. So like, yeah, look, you've got this strong female character, but you know what, let's punish her for having sex. You know, we've got the strong female character, but you know what? It's still kind of weird that she can kick this army man's ass. So let's put her back in her place, because she's just a blonde teenage cheerleader.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and like what I was saying before, like part of the reason the gender makes her a more interesting character is because the world views her as somebody who should be a marshmallow. She also kind of views herself that way. So I think she second guesses herself a lot more than any other superhero would do, which is kind of nice to see every once in a while. I mean, sometimes you're like why is everybody? Why is everybody? Buffy says guys, I had this dream. I think it's a prophetic dream, I think we should do this. And they're like whatever, you don't know anything, buffy, and she's like.
Speaker 3:OK, I don't know anything Like. No, you're a superhero, follow the prophetic dream. But being humble on occasion is a nice thing to see in a superhero, because it makes them not just a vigilante. It makes them somebody who is actually responsible and will take other people's viewpoints into perspective, which she does a lot, because she has that group with her.
Speaker 2:You're making me think about the episode where she I don't remember what happens, but something happens so she can hear people's thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like reading minds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's some spell or some yeah something supernatural happens, and so Buffy can hear people's thoughts, she can read minds, and at first it's just like people close to her, but eventually it's like all of humanity and it completely overwhelms her. But I'm thinking about that because, kate, as you're talking about sort of Buffy's humility and sort of second guessing herself, like there's that moment where she's confronts Giles and he's like judging her for her fashion, and she can hear it and she chuckles about it, like he thinks something, like she would strap live cats to her feet if somebody told her that that was something, like something along those lines.
Speaker 2:And she's just sort of like chuckles and she's like not offended. You know, it's just sort of like how they interact, which is interesting. And then also interesting in what you're saying right now about part of the strength of the character for us as viewers. We see that in that episode as well, because she becomes completely overwhelmed by the despair and the pain of humanity that we're all walking around within our heads all the time, once she's able to feel it Like they have to break the spell because she cannot function with the weight of everyone's thoughts and specifically their despair and pain. But I think it's a really just interesting and satisfying kind of take on the superhero-ness and why she does it. You know, I mean, batman does what he does because of pain, but it's his own pain. So I don't know where I'm going with this, but the way you were talking made me think about that specific episode as kind of epitomizing what you're getting at here.
Speaker 3:That idea actually comes back in season six when Willow tries to end the world, because she gets so in tune with everyone's emotions. She just says there's so much pain I have to end it when she's so in depth. And I have a particular love for season six, which is like people either love it or hate it. I love it. It gets super dark, so I can understand why it's not your jam, because it is different than a lot of the other seasons. This is what happened when they moved to another network, so there's also a lot more sex, which makes it better, because it's interesting, though it's not just sex for titillation, it actually is character development. For both characters involved and actually for the rest of the cast, it is a major plot point. So it's not just to have something sexy on the screen, it really is part of the story.
Speaker 3:And something else in season six that I love is that, unlike all the other seasons, the bad guy is just a bunch of incels as we view them now, like at the time that wasn't a phrase, but when you look at it now it's like oh my god, yeah, these guys, they're just nerds who can't connect with women, and because of that they want power and that's one of their top lines.
Speaker 3:They actually say it in one of the first few episodes. They say what are we doing this for? Chicks, chicks, chicks. And although most of them don't want to actually hurt anyone, they end up going down that path in the pursuit of power. And so season six is all about like unearned power and what happens when people get that, and I mean the big bad is them. And then Dark Willow too, because she goes evil, because Joss Whedon is evil and does something evil, and we can discuss the evilness of what happens, of why Willow goes off the deep end. But I think that was really interesting though the fact that these characters were incels before. That was a thing.
Speaker 1:Something that is resonating for me, talking about the fact that at least early on it sounds like Buffy was second guessing herself, and that humility I've mentioned to Tracy before. I can't remember if on Deep Thigh or Not. One of the odd and unexpected like role models for me growing up was Rose from Golden Girls.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 1:And that was because, as played by Betty White and this was partially her shtick everyone underestimated her because she was this adorable, pretty blonde who said things that sounded kind of stupid and she had no problem whatsoever with people underestimating her because when she needed it she could come through with this like razor sharp, incisive, like cut right to the heart comments that she would then just say and like you could never be sure if she really knew how devastating what the comment was or if she was really was as dumb as she was pretending to be. The reason I'm bringing this up is I'm thinking about Buffy and like second guessing herself and part of what I appreciated about Rose and what I took from it because I have also experienced being underestimated my entire life was not to be offended by it, because it doesn't matter what the other person thinks of me. What matters is like I know how smart I am, I know that I am capable and so and I know when I need it, I've got that wit there that I can like say that devastating thing and then smile nice and pretty and let them wonder like did she really mean that? I don't know if she meant it or not, but I'm bleeding.
Speaker 1:So I'm thinking about that with Buffy, based on what you're talking about here, is you get that a little bit of the like, the humility, and there is something great about that in a superhero. But it would also be great if you know she could be like okay, that's fine, underestimate me, I'm going to kick your ass when it's necessary and get that that I got from Rose, which is like it doesn't matter. If you underestimate me, I can do what needs to be done and you'll never know. You'll never know what's in my head and I know my own worth. And by kind of having that second guessing like oh yeah, I guess I don't know anything because I don't know if it's a prophetic dream or not. It's that same like give with one hand and take away with the other that I was mentioning.
Speaker 2:It does. And also she always turned out to be right. She always got the big bad in the end. I mean, well, there's a bit in the middle where she's whatever, but I think you know she sort of second guesses herself, but then it's proven to be right.
Speaker 1:So it's like Does she kind of gain that confidence over time?
Speaker 3:I think she does Like Buffy, season one. Sometimes there'll be one or two vampires and she's like oh god, what am I going to do? Oh, no, two whole vampires. And then by the time you get to like season four, season five, she's like whatever, I got three vampires in an alley, let's just do this thing and she.
Speaker 1:I think she does gain that self confidence and Well, and that makes sense for a 15 year old girl. Yeah, I mean, that's reasonable, it is. And that's, rose was a you know 50-60 something woman. So that's also the difference. Like you learn, like, oh, it's totally fine, you know, go ahead and underestimate me, I don't care.
Speaker 3:Yeah and so yeah, and she is worried. Like she in season five, she becomes very worried that she's becoming too hard and is becoming incapable of love. Like what other superhero has mentioned that kind of thing? That they were worried that they're losing their humanity?
Speaker 2:I think that I think she's just such a more well rounded character, because she's a woman, yeah well yeah, you know it's interesting to Emily and I often talk about sort of the not like other girls feminism that we were offered and in some ways at the start at least Buffy is definitely that right like one in a generation, right like it couldn't be clearer, not like other girls, and it's interesting and we're running out of time and we don't have time to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. Like the end of the whole series arc, the Scooby Gang does some stuff to make it so that all of the potential slayers come into their power, so that instead of just one, there are dozens, if not hundreds, around the world, which is the way it should have been in the beginning, because there are hundreds of it just makes so much more sense.
Speaker 2:But I'm thinking about that now as we are talking about Buffy as a superhero, about sort of the give and take of the feminism that has misogyny lurking in the backgrounds. You know all of the kind of back and forth that we've been talking about, the three of us today, with that story arc of the overarching series, and I'm wondering, like Kate, what do you? Does that help? Kind of redeem it, did that feel like? At the time I watched it, which was after it was all done, I can remember being like excited and also, like I don't know, a little conflicted, like I wasn't sure how to. I wasn't sure how to feel about this story arc of the multiple slayers, which is because I've been trained to believe that can be only one right, like like Highlander.
Speaker 3:I loved that arc. I thought it was great because she's not hoarding the power for herself. She actually wants to share all their power. And when you're saying not like other girls, I just saw meme somewhere and it said I am like other girls because other girls are awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right there.
Speaker 3:I'm also thinking about the trauma of being the only one which they, they delve into the loneliness they really of being the leader and how hard it is on her yeah, to like shit.
Speaker 1:The most recent Batman movie with Robert Pattinson. I actually really appreciated because it was the first Batman iteration I've ever seen where Bruce Wayne was appropriately fucked up. I'm sorry, the guy has mental health problems and you don't see it, and he's just a dude who, like, went through trauma and has a lot of money and is afraid of bats and so like actually having all that power and being alone and you know, having to deal with that and having your first boyfriend going on killing spree after you sex for the first time, like, like that, that's.
Speaker 2:That's a lot put on a person and your friends are in danger just for being your friends, just because they know, because then they become targets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, so that that's like there is something really welcome about saying like okay, you know it's tough on these other potentials, but at least they'll all have each other and we can work together. And and it's not just, you know, I'm not just gonna be this lonely weirdo, you know handling things by myself.
Speaker 3:There's just so much with this show like you could easily do an episode on like every season of the stuff that's brought up. Like there's so much the show explores and it does so. Again, I mean not perfectly and there's some missteps, but it's really, really interesting. And it reminds me actually I used to work with a sociologist who studied ghost hunters. Follow me here, I swear there's a through line. Okay, that sounds really cool it was.
Speaker 3:And something interesting he found was that with ghost hunters even though they found they thought of themselves as like, very counter cultural and outside the box thinkers and whatnot, cause they were looking for stuff that everybody else thought wasn't true Gender roles still they would still conform to gender roles that the women were supposed to be the emotional ones, like I feel that there's area over here is X, y and Z, and the men were supposed to be the ones using technology. And so if a man were to come into the house and say like oh, this feels cold over here and like you know, something bad happened, people would be. People would say, oh well, you can't be right, that's not right, that's your guy, you can't actually feel that way, and it's just. I think that Buffy manages to, it gets past those sort of gender roles, trying to think of the combination here it's, even though it is outside of the box, like I feel, like it blends enough sort of masculine and feminine ideas. I think I lost my initial shoot. This is what happens when I get too caffeinated.
Speaker 2:You were talking about ghosts yeah, ghost hunters and traditional gender roles.
Speaker 3:Ghost hunters and traditional gender roles, and I just think, like it, just Buffy just reminds me of that, because so many of the traditional gender roles are, they get past it and it's just more about people. To me, it's more about people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think Joss is Joss Whedon's original vision at least as I understood it was to subvert that right Like the vampire, the like scary male and somehow sexy vampire, like going in to the vulnerable and weak victim who then turns around and kills him, the idea that the monster sort of trailing the vulnerable blonde teenager into the alley and one of them is gonna end up dead and an eight the teenager, Like that subversion was kind of what I think Joss was finding interesting about the concept in the beginning and I think the concept is really fascinating and resonant and exciting, especially for those of us who have been coded as that vulnerable, weak creature.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the opening scene is looks like a blonde girl or blonde woman in a school girl outfit and this guy sneak into a school and it seems like he's gonna attack her like she's a victim. And then she turns around and she's a vampire and she kills him and by actually taking like you're like oh, I know this scene, I've seen this scene a thousand times and it kind of hits you Like it's really, it's well done, and so from that point on you kind of think like oh, you don't know what this show is gonna serve. You Like expect to be surprised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's subverts, and I think something that's interesting is the way that, on reflection, looking back, there was subversion and also there were things that were true to form, were true to societal expectations, like baked into the subversion that's what I'm hearing.
Speaker 3:So much gets boiled down to just gender stuff. Because there's so much that goes on in this show, like we haven't even talked about the awesomeness that is Willow and Tara and how it manages to be the whitest town in all of California, yep.
Speaker 2:I'm also thinking about, like I mean, there's gender and when I was watching it initially and thinking that it was a chastity parable, and then much, much later when we realized that Darla was dying of syphilis because she was a prostitute and they restore her human body but it's still being ravaged by syphilis. Like what are the messages going on there about Darla, who is the vampire who turned angel in the first place?
Speaker 3:Like there's a lot. There's a lot, and there's also the terribleness that is David Boran is trying to do. In Irish accent it's like could they not hire a coach or something. It's truly awful. But God bless him, he's pretty, so he is very pretty.
Speaker 2:He's very pretty, all right. Well, we have been talking for a long time and I know you're right. We could keep going, like season by season, episode by episode. I'm sure there are a few episodes that could take multiple episodes the musical episode. Probably genius. Yes, Once more feeling so genius. I think about that. That one, the song when Buffy is like I think I was in heaven. Oh, it breaks my heart.
Speaker 3:It's one of the many times that your heart gets broken in the show.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's true. So we talked about all that. We talked about the awesomeness of Buffy as a superhero, which is a framing that Kate brought specifically. That I think is really beautiful. If we put Buffy into that kind of pantheon of superheroes, then we can truly see what is unique about her. There are other female superheroes, but they're not like Buffy. There's something like uniquely human about Buffy's approach to her superheroism, which I don't know that she would have even used that word, but I like it that you did.
Speaker 2:We also talked about the just plain yuckiness of the Buffy angel story arc, of this hundreds of year old vampire who is dating a teenager and then, after he has one moment of true happiness, ie an orgasm, he turns evil and goes on a killing spree. Yuck, on many levels, yuck, many levels, yuck. Let's see. We talked about the not like other girls feminism, but then the series as a whole kind of rejects by bringing all potential slayers into their full power, so that it is like other girls, because other girls are awesome. And we talked about the ways in which Buffy is more fully formed than many of our strong female protagonists, that this show absolutely passes the backtel test with flying colors. I'm forgetting things. What are the other highlights? We wanna make sure we resurface.
Speaker 3:We talked about Joss Whedon.
Speaker 2:Joss Whedon, a powerful man in Hollywood who at best is an asshole and at worst an abuser.
Speaker 3:Which is too bad, because I love his work, and I mean my husband's a professor of history and one of his historical axioms is to study history is to see all of your heroes die because you realize that everyone who you love probably an asshole in some other part of their life who you would really disagree with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to that point I think, kate, your point that the big bad in business season six is incels and shadow willow. So before we had the word for incels, someone in the writer's room was like this is a problem, these dudes are dangerous. And also that dude was dangerous, that dude at the head of this writer's room, or I don't actually don't know if he's still writing at that point.
Speaker 3:I don't think he was One of the women writers on the show. Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't remember which one.
Speaker 3:I think he was too busy doing other stuff, so that's also an interesting point. Like the woman writer was saying that these guys are dangerous, interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, m did I forget anything? You want to make sure that we lift up? Apparently, team Spike is correct.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, it is accurate, as Jack was like correct National treasure. Stacey Abrams said she was like Angel was the guy that Buffy needed when she needed that support, but like Spike is the guy that she needed when she was a real, fully formed human being. I'm sure I'm butchering her quote, but I just love that Stacey Abrams knows.
Speaker 1:Buffy, so much, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've read one of Stacey Abrams' romance novels Are they good, she's legit oh.
Speaker 3:I haven't read any of her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. I really enjoyed it yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it is interesting on that point that like Angel lost his soul, spike went and like, went through a lot of trouble to reclaim his soul in order to be worthy of Buffy.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a very toxic relationship. That alone it's not minceworth, it is very toxic. But Also it's still better than Angel and Emily. Just you got to watch all of it.
Speaker 1:It's streaming on Hulu, girl, so good, I still have to catch up on Doctor who, because I missed all of that too. So that's next to my cue of both and. Both and Both and.
Speaker 2:Both, and All right. Well, this was so much fun, hey Moody. Thank you for joining us. As a reminder to our listeners, you can find Kate at themoneylibraryandcom and we will put a link to that in the show notes so that you can find him.
Speaker 3:Thank you, guys, so much for having me, my life is fun.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming, it was so much fun. It was the best. Yeah, so much fun. Emily, our next episode. I'm pretty sure that you're going to bring me something.
Speaker 1:I am yes, Next episode we're going to be talking about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, the Gene Wilder.
Speaker 2:The Gene Wilder. The Gene Wilder.
Speaker 1:Version.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's funny Sometimes, like I don't know, if I'm like in a spooky mood, I'll have that song from the scary bit like is it raining, is it snowing? Is a hurricane? I'm blowing, I don't know why, but it's in my head.
Speaker 1:Quite a bit of my poetry knowledge comes from that film and Gene Wilder's.
Speaker 2:So I'll look forward to talking about all of those deaths on a tour of a Chocolate Factory.
Speaker 1:Sounds good Till then.
Speaker 2:Till then, hey podcast listener. Yeah you. A number of folks have been reaching out to us privately with their own memories or deep thoughts about our deep thoughts. Erin told me that our brief conversation about poltergeist in the Ghostbusters episode brought back some scary childhood memories. Marion hi mom pointed out that Fred Savage's dad in the Princess Bride was probably at work and that we were maybe overthinking that idea. Jake pointed out to us that we had completely missed the negative and potentially harmful stereotypes of Roma people that underlie Robin Hood and Little John's cross-dressing as fortune tellers in Disney's Robin Hood.
Speaker 2:We want to hear what you're thinking, but I bet other listeners do too. We have a forum feature on our website at guygirlsmediacom. Come join the conversation. I'll put the link in the show notes. Come on over. Let us know. What did we miss? What surprised you? Did we inspire any deep thoughts for you? Be in touch. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember up. Culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?