You’ll shoot your eye out!
On this very special holiday episode of Deep Thoughts, Emily and Tracie take a deeper look at the 1983 classic, A Christmas Story. The sisters discuss what is relatable in the sweet, funny tale of 9-year-old Ralphie’s quest for the coveted Red Ryder carbine-action, 200-shot range model air rifle, but they also talk about how casual racism, outdated gender dynamics, and a Yule-centric storyline casts a pall on the otherwise delightful nostalgia.
Throw on your earbuds and take a listen–We TRIPLE DOG DARE you!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
You’ll shoot your eye out!
On this very special holiday episode of Deep Thoughts, Emily and Tracie take a deeper look at the 1983 classic, A Christmas Story. The sisters discuss what is relatable in the sweet, funny tale of 9-year-old Ralphie’s quest for the coveted Red Ryder carbine-action, 200-shot range model air rifle, but they also talk about how casual racism, outdated gender dynamics, and a Yule-centric storyline casts a pall on the otherwise delightful nostalgia.
Throw on your earbuds and take a listen–We TRIPLE DOG DARE you!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
This is Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the classic movie A Christmas Story with my sister, Tracy Guy-Dekker, and with you, let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters. You know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over and think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people.
Speaker 1:So, tracy, I know you've seen this film. I think it's rare to find an American over the age of like four who hasn't but tell me what you know about A Christmas Story and what you remember about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely seen the movie with you, no doubt. I think my spouse wanted to watch it with our daughter last year and she did not like it.
Speaker 3:Not at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Ralphie I remember Ralphie with his cute glasses and he really wants a Red Rider BB gun for Christmas. And everybody tells him that he's going to shoot his eye out. But he has a plan because he's going to ask Santa for it. So the mall Santa tells him he's going to shoot his eye out, but he gets the gun for Christmas from his dad and shoots his eye out. No, not really, but does have like a, like an icicle fall on his face or something and breaks his glasses.
Speaker 1:That's the story he comes up with, because the BB ricochets off of the shade and threw his glasses off his face and actually his glasses were fine, but then he stepped on them.
Speaker 2:Right, because he can't see them Right. And, of course, the sexy lamp, the trope that we talk about. Where, if your character could be replaced with the sexy lamp, the sexy lamp from this movie?
Speaker 2:that's the sexy lamp. Yes, then you need to go rewrite. And I remember the dad like being super excited about the major award and this, the hacking crates as fragile, and he's like, oh, fragile, it's Italian, yeah. And oh, there's a scene with the kid getting his tongue stuck to a frozen like pole, and cursing. Ralphie learns to curse from his dad but he blames another kid, yeah. So I remember like like snapshots from the movie that sort of come together into a comprehensive story in my brain, but mostly are just snapshots.
Speaker 1:So that's actually kind of what the movie is is. It's it's snapshots that are kind of vignettes that are brought together into a sort of cohesive story. So it's not unreasonable that you remember it.
Speaker 2:That's the way I remember it. Yeah, all right. So, like you said, this is a classic, like it is just kind of understood that this is American Christmas time media, so why are we talking about it?
Speaker 1:So there's a couple of reasons why I wanted to talk about it. You know there's no lack of Christmas movies or us to discuss, and talking about Christmas movies is a little bit Frot's, a little too strong, a little odd for us, because neither of us celebrates Christmas at this point in our lives. Listeners, if you don't know, we're Jewish but we were raised by our mom is Jewish, our dad was not, and we were raised with Christmas growing up, and so this is a movie that I don't exactly associate with Christmas, so much as I associate it with our dad because he had a great deal of affection for this movie for a number of reasons, one being that dad loved kids and this is some of the best child acting I think that you see anywhere. I think part of it is.
Speaker 1:Peter Billingsley is a very good actor. He was 12 when he was playing Ralphie, who was nine, and he was already, like, very well known in commercials and had done a few other things. I think he's just a talented actor. And then it seems that Bob Clark, the director, knew what to bring out of the kids. Randy mostly kind of cried and was saying and didn't have much to say, which is exactly what needed to be done.
Speaker 2:Randy's Ralph is younger brother. Yes, Randy's the little brother.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot in there that I associate with dad. There's this nostalgia for a time that was a little before dad's time, but it reminded dad of his childhood Not much.
Speaker 1:Yeah not much Reminded dad of his childhood. There's this warmth around childhood that I associate with dad, like a warmth around the memories of childhood and around love for children and then just the fact that dad would crack up, even though he'd seen it over and over and over again. So that's part of the reason why I want to talk about it is this movie trades on nostalgia. So I want to look at nostalgia a little bit more closely and, as you mentioned before, we started recording. Like not only did this movie that came out in 1983 have nostalgia for a world 40 years earlier. Now that it's a 40 year old movie, people have nostalgia for the movie, right, and so I'd like to kind of look at that, the role of nostalgia in this. And then that also brings up certain things that are kind of ugly about our past. There's some blatant racism in the film. That was considered okay in 1983 to be a joke about something happening in 1940. The gender dynamics between the old man and.
Speaker 1:Mrs Parker. So that's Ralphie's parents. You never know their names and he always refers to his father as the old man and his mother as mom or mother. So there's gender dynamics there that are a little odd and uncomfortable to look at from the hindsight of 2023. And there is some very interesting pro capitalism and anti capitalism messages in there as well that are real, real difficult to parse. So there's quite a bit in there that I think is worth looking at in terms of what we consider like the good old days and what we are allowing to be swept under the rug because of nostalgia. So those are a bunch of the things that I'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Cool, all right, let's dive in. Let's start. If you could give like a more cohesive run down than I did.
Speaker 1:The film is based on a novel by Gene Shepard, who was a humorist. He was known for radio. He would tell these vignettes about his childhood that he swore were fiction, but they included names of people who he actually had gone to school with. So he made it very difficult to know what was true about him. Gene Shepard did, but the novel was called In God we Trust All Others Pay Cash, which is a great name, a great title, and it had a number of different vignettes that were kind of woven together.
Speaker 1:Apparently the frame story was Ralphie returning to I think Hammond Indiana was the name, the fictional name of his town, or maybe Haman. I think Hammond was the real town, haman was the fictional town. Anyway, returning home and catching up with Flick, he's the one who gets his tongue stuck on the ice pole who is now keeping bar in town. So they're both adults at this point and reminiscing about their childhood, and so there's a number of different stories like some of them are taken straight from it and put into the movie. Others are from other points in time in his life or in the year even, and kind of woven in together.
Speaker 1:But there's a reason why you think of it as vignettes and why it's possible. I mean, tbs or TNT does 24 hours of a Christmas story every year. I don't know how long they've been doing it, but it's at least 20 years, maybe I think even longer, because I think I remember seeing it when I still celebrated Christmas, which was before the turn of the Millennium. And there's a reason why they can do that because you can just pop in for the vignette and pop back out again. You don't need to see the whole movie. Gene Shepherd is the voice narrating the film.
Speaker 2:He is the author of the novel.
Speaker 1:Yes, the narrator. That's cool and you'll notice his narration is amazing. His voice is perfect for it. So it was a very good decision to do that. And Bob Clark, who directed the film and helped write the screenplay with Gene Shepherd, did it because sometime in the early 70s he heard Gene Shepherd telling the vignette about beating up Scott Farkas, the bully, on the radio and he's like I need to make a movie of this guy's stories and it took him about 10 years to be able to do so. Dripping in nostalgia.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:So all that is to say. The story is about Ralphie Parker, who is nine years old, in a small town in Indiana, not far from Chicago. It is a few weeks before Christmas and all he wants is a red rider BB gun. And there's more to it there's a compass on the barrel and a bunch of other stuff. So it's a red rider BB gun and he is really excited about Christmas coming. And it's a bunch of different stories woven together. He has a little brother named Randy. His mother is a stay-at-home mom, as pretty much they all were. It doesn't have an exact date, but it's around 1940. His father, the old man, is kind of this irascible guy who he's constantly fighting with his boiler or no, not the boiler, the furnace, he's fighting with the furnace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm cursing at it and the smoke comes up out of the vents. Yep, I remember that.
Speaker 1:So constantly fighting with the furnace and then with the neighbor's dogs who are just left to room free. The bump, bump. The bump is dogs, yes, and who is always excited to try to win different prizes and games in the newspaper and does not strike one as exactly scholar.
Speaker 2:Not the most intellectual of men.
Speaker 1:No, the mother is like, very like. It's hard to describe her personality because she seems like the prototypical mother, but there is some like humanity and sweetness there too that you see, like when she gets Randy to eat because he's the kid who will not eat, and so she's like why don't you show me how a piggy eats? And like he's like putting his face in the food. And that's one thing I have a very strong memory, because the kid playing Randy is giggling and Melinda Dillon, who played the mother, is also laughing and I remember it being on TV and dad going like they actually got that child to laugh. That is a real laugh from that child and how delighted he was at how happy this kid was. The other thing that she does that I have always loved is after she washes Ralphie's mouth out with soap and she sends him to bed, she's looking at the soap and, like, puts it in her own mouth. Just be like. This tastes like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember her being disgusted. That's my memory. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we've got this mother character who you don't get as many like specifics about but is also very important character in this in the film. Ralphie has two best friends, flick and Schwartz. You never find out Schwartz's first name, they only ever call him Schwartz. Is Flick a first name? I think so. That's what the teacher calls him too, so it's at least his nickname.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:And so they get into scrapes together. Schwartz is the one who triple dog bears Flick to stick his tongue to the frozen pole where it gets stuck, and the bell rings they all banded.
Speaker 3:They live banded Flick.
Speaker 2:I can remember debates between you and me and Chris as to whether or not that would actually work if your tongue would actually get frozen. Chris was our cousin, yeah, and like not being able to find out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember dad telling us like they didn't need to call the fire department, they just needed some warm water. Remember telling this dad. And so, like ever since, I'm like you just need some warm water. Why is everyone making this so difficult? So Ralphie tells his mother that he wants the BB gun. She says to him like you'll shoot your eye out. His teacher requires the kids to write a theme which I guess is what they used to call an essay about what they want for Christmas. And so he writes about wanting this BB gun and she gives them a C plus and writes at the bottom. He asks you'll shoot your eye out.
Speaker 3:He has like a fantasy of her loving it and writing a plus, plus and the pluses go around this classroom. I remember that plus plus, plus.
Speaker 1:He has plenty of different fantasies. They're adorable. Like he has a fantasy of using the BB gun to protect his family from robbers who are all wearing black. Yeah, there's, there's a number of him. He has a fantasy after his mouth is washed out with soap. He has a fantasy of coming home as an adult and he's gone blind. He's blind Because of so poisoning.
Speaker 3:Yes, but it's still him as like nine year old.
Speaker 1:It's a fantasy, but it's still the nine year old and he's like, has a cane and the dark glasses yeah, he ends up going to see Santa at the local shopping mall and or actually a department store who is kind of awful. Remember that Santa scene gave me, not like it may be a little frightened when I was very little. That's the scene and the Santa tells him you'll shoot your eye out, kid.
Speaker 2:I just as like a little parenthetical that was. That scene was so validating to me because I was terrified of Santa as, like, like we grew, so we did grow up with Christmas, but like dad told me when I was like five that Santa was made up because I was so freaking scared of him.
Speaker 3:I didn't know that. I was terrified. Scary bearded stranger was going to come in our house at night Like I was like having bad contacts.
Speaker 2:It's like a five year old and like they at our at Happy Acres, at the nursery school, like the directors the husband was like Miss Sandy yeah, miss Sandy's husband would dress up as.
Speaker 3:Santa and I about wet my pants and so dad told me anyway. So the fact that that like the Santa from Christmas story is such a like just jerk, jerk and the elves are all jerks, was like kind of validating. I mean, I had found him just absolutely terrifying, and now, as an adult, I like can't handle horror movies, like we should have seen that coming.
Speaker 1:That is so funny.
Speaker 3:I mean easily scared human being.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I had remembered, because I also was terrified when Miss Sandy's husband came as as as Santa I I, as I remember it, it was a mask, not like you know, just beard. That's how I remember it.
Speaker 3:But I was just scared.
Speaker 1:I don't remember the details and so and I did not know you had been scared too, because I remember mom telling me that they knew it was coming and so they had Miss Sandy come dressed as Santa, so that like they could even show us putting it on and like and Santa's coming, and it's okay and like I could handle that. But then when I was like no, out of here.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember it being like, like you remember the Halloween masks from the 80s that were like yes, this little, like those little slits, yeah, those were awful.
Speaker 3:How did? How? Did not more people die?
Speaker 2:in the 80s.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Anyway, okay.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So gets to be Christmas morning. Ralphie opens his presents. He has one awful present from his Aunt Clara, which is a bunny suit that she made herself.
Speaker 3:It's a bunny feet.
Speaker 1:It's all pink.
Speaker 3:It's all pink, mom, and mom makes them put it on yeah.
Speaker 1:And so they've opened all their presents. Randy has fallen back to sleep clutching his toy Zeppelin and the old man asks Ralphie like well, are you happy with all your presents? He's like mostly. Yeah. He's like or did you get everything you wanted mostly? And he's like, oh, what's that? There's another present beside the desk and it's the BB gun.
Speaker 1:And what's interesting is his dad is the one person. He never said that he wanted. I mean the one person, but he told his mom. He didn't tell his dad that he wanted this BB gun and his dad got it for him without discussing it with mom. This is nothing I want to talk about a little bit.
Speaker 1:So he goes outside. That's when he shoots his eye out Not really the BB ricochet, and that is one of the funniest moments where, like it, like boom, and he's like I shot my mouth. So he makes up a story about an icicle falling to cover the fact that he shot his eye out. He shot his eye out and while they're taking care of, like, his little cut under his eye, taking care of the broken glasses, the bumpers, his dogs get in and destroy their turkey. So they end up going to a Chinese restaurant for dinner and they are the only people there. And then the end of the movie is Randy asleep in his bed, ralphie clutching the BB gun to his chest to go to sleep and saying it's the best gift he ever, he had ever received or would ever receive. And there there's a lovely moment of the old man sitting by the tree looking at the snow coming down and he says to the mother like come, look up, pretty. And they sit and they kind of just sink into each other in a very lovely loving way that I really appreciate it. As an adult, I think I remember going like, why are they staring at the snow? When I was a kid and now as an adult I'm like, oh, I like that, and that's, that's the end of the film. So we talked a little bit about nostalgia.
Speaker 1:The movie didn't do that well when it came out in 1983. Oh really, oh yeah, yeah, it wasn't a box office success, no, and some of it was like what I've been reading. It seems like at the time movies that were specifically for Christmas didn't really do well. Now there have been times, had been time before that where they did, and it certainly is a big business now, but at the time it was just like when do we put this out? Like at Thanksgiving, like who's going to see this when? And it became a cult classic, in part because it's around when VCRs became prevalent and so when, like, the stores that had VCRs were selling them as present as, like you know, potential gift for Christmas, it was one of the VHS tapes that they had available to also sell. Ah, and it was like a really good pairing.
Speaker 1:And then you know, of course it's a very good movie, like it is very, very well done. It doesn't have much of an overarching story because it's this slice of life, but it's so relatable in so many ways, even if you've never experienced Midwest childhood in the 40s or 50s, in mid 20th century America. There is so much relatable in the dynamics of the family, in the brothers dynamics, in friendships, in what it's like to be in fourth grade. You know any number of things. You know you may not have had the triple dog dare, but there was like oh, he didn't actually say that in your elementary school playground.
Speaker 2:No she didn't yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's, there's a, there's a lot there, and so it became cult. Classic usually means that it like was completely bombed, it didn't it? It earned back what they spent on it, more than they spent on it. I think it was a four million dollar movie and they it made like almost 20 million in the box office.
Speaker 1:Ok, so it wasn't a box office flop, it just wasn't a runaway, it just wasn't huge yeah, and has since been reevaluated as like probably the best movie in 1983, roger Ebert gave it three stars when it came out, but then revisited it in the year 2000,. Gave it four stars and said it's one of it's a classic film, that sort of thing. The thing about nostalgia is that it gives you rose colored glasses because all you're remembering is the pleasant stuff and there's some unpleasant stuff that it isn't even like they've forgotten it. It's that like we kind of ignore it. So the racism in the film, when the the turkey is, is eaten up by the bumpers. As dogs they go to a Chinese restaurant and the thing is this Chinese restaurant is completely empty except for these four people.
Speaker 2:Where were the Jews?
Speaker 1:Yeah, where were the Schwartz's? The Schwartz family would have been there, and so they show. And this, this restaurant is being lovely. They're bringing out all this food they have. Three of the four servers are singing Christmas songs. Carols, carols, yeah, and but they are over emphasizing the LR pronunciation. Difficulty with someone who is a Chinese speaker might have.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a joke.
Speaker 2:They make it a joke and the parkers are trying to correct them.
Speaker 1:No, actually it's the. It's the the parkers don't, don't try to correct me, it's the. Mater D, mater D.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's also the moment with the duck, like they bring up a whole duck and that it still has its head and Mr Parker, the old man, is like like well, mom is just like she is like, look at it, right. I remember that very clearly she's she's giggling, she is like, yeah, and Mr Parker is like it's smiling at me, and so they like cut the head off right there at the table.
Speaker 1:Melinda Dylan did not know that's what was going to happen, and so her reaction is genuine, which is like yeah, sort of recoils and yeah. But, but in a like recoils in a like hysterical, like, not hysterical, bad hysterical like oh my goodness, I can't believe this is happening. This is so funny kind of way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's also, it's played with a level of, like, cultural judgment, mm, hmm, yeah, how, how ridiculous these Chinese people are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if it had just been the duck, I think that could have been like yeah, yeah, that that could have been like a pass. Well, and like a loving look back at one's first introduction to very different culture, for one from one's own. But it's the duck plus the singing that was completely unnecessary.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's another singing.
Speaker 2:The singing turns those I don't even want to call them characters, those people into caricatures. Right, Like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:There's one other point that I was I shouldn't have been shocked by, but I was shocked by when they go to buy the Christmas tree and they're like haggling over the price of the Christmas tree and Ralphie Jean Shepherd as the voiceover. So adult Ralphie says the old man loved to bargain as much as an Arab or something like that. Ooh, that was.
Speaker 3:I wonder if it's.
Speaker 2:I wonder if he said Arab instead of Jew as an attempt to be more politically correct in 1983.
Speaker 1:That's a good question.
Speaker 2:Like. I think one would have anticipated actually haggling to be stereotypically assigned to Jewishness.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, if I just watched the last night and I can't remember if you're like an Arab and a bizarre or something like that, but yeah, I was just. I was really surprised by that, but I shouldn't have been. It's a 40 year old movie about that was set for that.
Speaker 1:So and honestly, it's not as bad as it could be, considering both of those things. So one of the things I was thinking about when I sat down to watch it was like I know this is set in Indiana in the mid mid century. Am I going to see any black folks in this movie? And I was surprised because I did. Ralphie has several classmates who are black and then early on, when you see the like town as it's getting ready for Christmas like this one, ralphie runs to the department store to see all the toys on display. They you see a choir that's an entirely black choir, singing a like traditional spiritual early on. So I was glad that there was at least that much representation. But then that brings me to Schwartz, his friend.
Speaker 1:I spent not in the Chinese restaurant, who was not in the Chinese restaurant. I spent a decent amount of time trying to find out if Schwartz was intended to be a Jewish character and actually I'm sorry, what were your conclusions? It's not clear. It was really not clear. So his name is Schwartz, which is German, yeah, german.
Speaker 1:And every person I know with that name is Jewish Not that I know every Schwartz out there. And when Ralphie claims that Schwartz taught him the F word and Ralphie's mom calls Mrs Schwartz to tell her, you don't really hear Mrs Schwartz's words, but you can kind of hear her voice through the telephone and to my ears her voice sounds stereotypically Jewish, American Jewish, so might have been listening for that. And then I was looking at the character when Miss Shields, the teacher, announces that they need to write about what they want for Christmas and the again it's like his face was kind of neutralish, it wasn't like this, which is what I imagine it would be, and also as a child actor and whatever.
Speaker 3:As a child actor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I honestly I don't know, but I took it as he was a Jewish kid and that also got me thinking about they were in a public school it was Warren G Harding Elementary School and the teacher's just saying tell me what you want for Christmas. Here's your essay.
Speaker 2:Which in 1940. Something does not surprise me, because we still get some of that stuff today. You know I mean a lot less so, but I mean I know you had to battle with some of it with your kids and yeah, I mean, yeah, that doesn't feel surprising.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's not. And I mean we sang Christmas carols in the 80s in elementary school choir.
Speaker 1:Well, and I feel like we did Christmas related stuff in the 80s and in our school. I might be wrong, but I feel like I remember doing something like it might have been like optional type things.
Speaker 2:No, I mean because we were celebrating Christmas and so it didn't stand out to us exactly then, as it does to me now, when my kid is asked to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the specific instance was in Indiana, when we still lived in Indiana, my eldest was going to a language intensive preschool when he was three because he was a little speech delayed. It was a public school and so they had vocabulary that they were using and it was something like every two weeks they'd get a new set of vocabulary and they got all Christmas related vocabulary and it was like candy cane, reindeer and tree, and so like I'm sure that the teacher was like oh, it's secular stuff. And so I reached out, was like we don't celebrate Christmas, can we not do this? And she's like, oh, okay, well, you know, tell me what Hanukkah words you want. And so I'm like, all right, fine, but that was the year that Hanukkah fell really early and started on Thanksgiving. Do you remember that year? I do remember that year Thanks Givica.
Speaker 1:And so it was like so by the time they got to the vocabulary it was unnecessary because Hanukkah was over and it was like I did not expect to have to be the Grinch parent so early on and I didn't want to make a stink about it because, like I'm sure, this teacher had a lesson planned to laminate. It did the same thing year after year after year and anyway, and so that that's part of my experience. This film too is. It feels very relatable to me wanting a specific gift on Christmas, because I grew up with Christmas, and yet it feels very alienating in some ways, because I made the very conscious choice not to celebrate Christmas anymore, because in my early 20s I actually had a kind of a crisis, because being Jewish is a very important part of who I am and celebrating Christmas did not fit with that, and I know there are Jews who celebrate Christmas and it is not my place to judge and I, you know, do what you do wasn't going to work for me, I think, in part.
Speaker 2:That's because Jewish identity, unless you are in a very tight, insular Jewish community, like an Orthodox community that all worship at the same shul and like live in the same neighborhood, it is fraught.
Speaker 2:It is a very fraught identity and it's I especially with us growing up, you know, with with dad not being Jewish, like Jewish enough I'm putting quotes around that you know and so I would be like not Jewish enough in Jewish circles but then like way too Jewish in my circles, with, with non Jews, and so anything that would kind of muddy that Jewish identity felt almost dangerous to a like a core of who I am. That's why I stopped or, you know, chose not to celebrate Christmas with my, with my family once I had one, because, yeah, it's, it's really hard, it's really hard and so taking ammunition away from the folks, jewish or or not, who say, well, you're not really Jewish, because taking that ammunition away felt like an important self preservation move. That's a weird articulation of it. I don't like it that it's so negative that I'm taking ammunition away from other people rather than I mean Christmas is fun.
Speaker 3:I don't want to suggest otherwise, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:It was so great waking up on Christmas morning and they're being presents. That was fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I feel like a jerk for denying my kid that because I had the benefit of it and also, like on the other side of the ledger, it caused a lot of grief for me.
Speaker 1:It's to me. It feels like I'm a former stoner who's telling my kids stay off drugs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit to.
Speaker 1:Christmas and my crisis in my early 20s came about because I really do love Christmas. I love the sappy, like you know. Like it's Christmas and that means it's time for family and that means like goodwill towards everyone and you tell the truth at Christmas and like all that crap you get in the schlocky movies.
Speaker 2:I love that stuff. Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's a magic in the air and baking cookies and decorating trees and all of that Goodwill toward men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the anticipation, because I know of anticipation until I got to a point where I realized, like the reality could never live up to the anticipation.
Speaker 1:So I had this crisis because I was like I kind of wished that I could just be general secular American, like like Ralphie, like I wished I could be like Ralphie because you know, they don't go to like they don't go to church at no point in this. You know they're dying Easter eggs in five months and and not going to church and so and that, like I wish that could be that. But when I like could articulate that to myself and realize like, but I would lose something important about myself if I could be that because I could, I mean there's nothing stopping me, but I would lose something that's important and that to me meant okay, well, as fun as Christmas is, I need to let go of that because it's less important than this aspect of who I am. So it's it's difficult also raising kids in the 2020s, the 20 teens and 2020s, because Christmas can be year round, because with streaming services, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the streaming services. Like, I made a point with my daughter that we just, we just weren't going to watch Christmas movies, at least not in the beginning, because I didn't want that to be, I didn't want to create nostalgia around that. But yeah, with the streaming services she's just like binging a show and you know I come in the room, it's the Christmas episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the Christmas episode of whatever stupid Nickelodeon show she's watching right now, and she looks at me with this sheepish look and she's like I didn't know. Sorry, mom, yeah, I can't be in her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Anyway, so so, yeah, there's a. The nostalgia piece of Christmas story is leaving a lot of people out, sort of including us. I mean not because we had it as children, but there's that aspect of it, the nostalgia piece about the family dynamics. We're all weird too. So, as I mentioned, the mother doesn't really have much of a personality. She does, but she's harder to like pin down and it's because she's like a good mother.
Speaker 1:There's a point where they're eating dinner and the old man asks like, oh, can I have some more of that? And so she had just sat down and put a fork to her mouth and she put it down and got him more of. And then, as soon as she sits down and gets a fork in her hand again, ralphie says, oh, can I have? And she gets up and gets that and the voiceover Ralphie as an adult, says my mother hadn't had a hot meal to herself in 15 years. Now the first issue with that is Ralphie is nine. He's the eldest. So, like, as someone who has gone through having a tiny child, yeah, you get used to not eating hot meals when they're little because they need you so much. But what the hell, what are you doing? Darren McAvon, there were six years there where they didn't have children and she didn't have a hot meal.
Speaker 1:That's weird Everything that goes on the leg lamp. So she is mortified by this lamp because it is so tacky. Yeah, it is so tacky.
Speaker 2:It's like a four foot high, like women's leg wearing fishnet stockings One leg, yeah, fishnet stockings and high heels, and then with a lampshade like at the hip, socket A buttock.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and there is a bit of a buttock there too, and so. But instead of talking about it, she doesn't say to the old man Look, I know that this is your prize and you're very glad to have it, but I'm embarrassed having this in our front window. Can we please put it anywhere else? No, it accidentally breaks and the implication is that the mother broke it on purpose. Yeah, but then on the other side of it, like the dad doesn't say like hey, this is so exciting, I love it. I want to put it in the front window because I want everyone to know. Like he's just like, here we go. So it's this weird dance of like he's the head of the household, so he makes these decisions, but she undermines them in little ways, I think.
Speaker 2:I've. Yeah, I feel like that sort of the idea of alliances and jockeying for power and position between the two of them and including the kids, is that comes up again and again, right, like there's a after the fight, when, when Ralphie is bullied, we see him bullied, he and his friends, a couple of times and then at a certain point Ralphie like just snaps and goes off on what was his name? Scott Farkas, scott, scott, farkas, scott, scott with a U. That's unfortunate, yeah. So he goes off on Scott and like beats him to a pulp, like sitting like Ralphie is straddling. Scott is lying down, ralphie straddling his chest and just like pounding on his face and mom cursing yeah, like cursing obscenity is the whole time. And so a mom gets him and takes him home and cares you know, she gives him some Afrikaerat. Now Ralphie doesn't have his glasses on and the glasses are a point of contention because they're expensive and whatever. And so dad says does dad notice or does mom just give him the glasses back?
Speaker 2:No, dad asks where they are and she pulls them out of her pocket and says you left them. She lies about where they came from and is clearly an alliance between mom and Ralphie against dad. She's keeping I mean she's not hurting dad in any way, but she's keeping the truth from him to protect Ralphie, and that is made very plain and so like that alliance there between Ralphie and mom. But then there are also alliances between dad and Ralphie. Right the gun for the present.
Speaker 1:For one thing, Can I tell you if my spouse were to give my child a present that I had said no to, without consulting me, without me having any idea of it until they're opening it?
Speaker 2:Oh why would be pissed. Frankly, it's grounds for divorce. I would be pissed. It's real bad, yeah. And I mean even there's also then like but then dad and Ralphie not just the gun, also the horrible bunny costume that mom says is adorable, and dad like makes it plain like it's terrible, don't do this to the kid, right. So there are these like little alliances between I'm sure Randy comes into, I just haven't seen it recently enough.
Speaker 1:Well, when Randy. So part the reason, the reason why mom lies about where Ralphie's glasses went. And then she kind of lied over the fight that Ralphie got into. Oh, she's like it was a fight, no big deal how about them bears? But beforehand Randy is hiding in the cupboard crying because daddy's going to kill Ralphie when he gets home and she's like no, I promise he won't. And she's like you want to come out of there. He's like no, she's like you want some milk. And so she pours him some milk and puts it in the cupboard with him and like it's an adorable, sweet scene. You know like this is showing lovely parenting on her part. You know the way that she is like meeting him where he is and meeting Randy's needs and like I hope that I could do that when my kid is hurting. But the fact of it is that he's like daddy's going to kill Ralphie, like what? And I'm, there's a, there's an aspect of nostalgia. That's nostalgia for like old, tiny parenting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which you end up getting the like. Well, I turned out okay, so I'm sure it's fine kind of reaction to it.
Speaker 2:There's also the gendered piece of it. Right, mom does the caretaking, dad does the discipline, even though we actually see very little of dad disciplining in this movie. We see suggestions that that happens. And or dad is like that bunny costume is not manly, yeah, right, I mean Ralphie doesn't like it, and so I don't think it's toxic masculinity that Well, except Ralphie says that his Aunt Clara thinks that he is perpetually four years old and a girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah so there is yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think even a nine year old girl would have a hard time with that thing.
Speaker 1:That's my, that's my issue. Because it's like. It's not because it's pink and he's a boy, it's because it's a bunny costume and he's nine.
Speaker 2:Right Now he does say, if you're what you just said, he says she thinks he's four. So maybe a four year old girl would like the bunny costume. Yeah, but anyway, the your point about the nostalgia, I think, is well taken, even in the role that like. Even what you say about mom is that she's not. She's not a fully formed character, she's just a good mom which, with this rose colored glasses in 1983 of the early 40s, she's a caretaker, mm. Hmm, that's it, yeah, and it's nostalgia. So she's a good one, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we get a couple of little fun moments, like when she puts the, the, the soap in her mouth. Soap in her mouth, mm hmm, that is the most fully formed aspect of her character that we get.
Speaker 3:And it's just sort of outside it's delightful.
Speaker 2:And it's a little bit outside the purview of what the narrator actually would have known. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly as is the moment when the parents sit together and watch the snow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know some of it is. I think there's the like, the expectation that it's not that anyone really that the old man was abusive or hit or disciplined in any way, cause the only discipline we see is when the mother does the soap.
Speaker 2:What about when Ralphie curses when, when they're changing the tire?
Speaker 1:Well, that's why he gets the soap, because all the old man says is go back in the car right now.
Speaker 3:Got it, got it.
Speaker 1:And he does at one point say to Randy, why are you crying? I'll give you some and cry about. So, like there is the possibility of the suggestion that the old man's all talk, Mm hmm, and like he's Darren McAven plays him as a very loving father. So some of this is like the way that a child looked at a father who had a temper but took it out on the furnace and the pump is his dogs.
Speaker 2:Right and did it mainly with this, with it was with cursing, yeah, yeah, yeah, you said when you said what you wanted to talk about that there's some Capitalists and anti-capitalist stuff in this movie. Yes, I'm looking at the time and how long we've been recording and I want to make sure we get to that. Yes, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's very interesting. This movie is set during, as I understand it because this is not a timeframe I know a lot about, but like kind of the onset of American consumerism. That was very mainstream in terms of like kids having expectations for Christmas and like toys that could be bought. I'm just thinking of like when I was a kid and I used to love reading the little house on the prairie books and they would get an orange for Christmas and they were delighted by it, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So and Ralphie makes it clear, the BB gun is the best present he ever got. And what we see is that this is more about like someone seeing him. His father saw him and all of his fantasies and the things that were important to him and gave him what he wanted. And it's not really about the BB gun, it's about being seen and that I really appreciate. But there is definitely a sense of like the abundance of the presence under the tree and like this is something he wants and he's got his nose pressed to the window at the very beginning. Like there is definitely this like I want this thing that can be bought. So I find that very interesting and then compare that to when he gets a little orphan Annie to Coder yeah ring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so excited to get this. So the secret message from, from the Lone Ranger. Mm, hmm, I know the little orphan Annie. Oh it is, I knew it was a little orphan. Annie's Dakota ring yeah, and the message is like drink your oval teen or something, be sure to drink your oval teen, which he had to.
Speaker 1:He had to drink oval teen to get enough box tops or whatever they were to get the Dakota ring yeah.
Speaker 2:So the fact that the secret message is a commercial like Disillusioned so disillusioned.
Speaker 1:And so we've got that. And then also the Santa who is you actually? See him talking to an elf at one point where he's like, if they, if they think I'm going to work a second after 9pm, they've got another thing coming. So this is this like part of the reason why there's such jerks is like it's nine and they're ready to go home. But that's also it's set up in a way to maximize the number of kids that can get through. That's why they've got the slide Right. They've got the two, two helpers to make sure and get the kid off the lap, get the kid on the lap Right, and so and that is set up in a department store.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And it is very much like pushing, like another disillusioning moment about the magic of Christmas. And so it's this weird push pull, because, like, there is this sense of like a material object is, is, will give me the magic of Christmas.
Speaker 2:But makes me happy, and in fact it does make him happy. It also should.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I out.
Speaker 1:It also shoots his eye out, but at the same time, like there's this kind of anti capitalist, anti consumerist message where it's just like yeah, they're going to take everything they can get, they're going to give you a commercial when you think you're getting a special message.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's really I just am not sure how to like, where to put that the fact that you get both of these things in this story, where you know it's very much a consumerist story but it's also anti consumerism or at least anti capitalism, because how dare you like be a commercial when I wanted a secret message, yeah, and you could see. I mean potentially see the. The like, the nastiness of the Santa is like a pro worker message, because these should have been paying Santa and his elves more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I'm also thinking about, like, what are some of the underlying messages about? Like disappointment or sort of like having a particular vision in mind, and what happens when that doesn't happen the way you expected it to, with the turkey and the duck at the turkey that the bumpers his dogs eat, that they've made it a big deal through the whole movie about how much the old man loves turkey, like this is, like this is his favorite part of the holiday because he loves turkey so much and he's always like stealing it before it's done and mom's yelling at him that he's going to get sick or whatever. And then they end up at the Chinese restaurant eating the duck and it seems, I mean, they seem to actually kind of enjoy that piece, right, and the other things aside that we talked about, like the family, the parkers seem to be having a nice Christmas dinner.
Speaker 1:And they the the voiceover talks about, like you know how memorable it was and this was like the first time they experienced Chinese turkey is the way he put it, but it makes it clear that this is a happy memory, yeah yeah. Even though it was because of the bumpers' dogs and everyone was about to cry after the bumpers' dogs did that.
Speaker 1:And the old man is the one who's like everybody get dressed, we're going out to eat, and so there's. There's something like kind of admirable and like we are making the best of this. Yeah, yeah, from the person who was going to be the most disappointed, there's something really there's.
Speaker 2:there's a tension it goes along with your capitalist, anti-capitalist or consumerist, anti-consumerist about sort of placing one's full expectation of happiness in that singular eventuality or item or whatever, and like what happens when that doesn't come through. That feel, to me it feels resonant and within the tension of what you're pointing to, the push-pull that you're pointing to, and it's, it's and also actually sorry, also resonant with the sort of Christmas spirit stuff that you and I both love, despite ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Like, because that's that's. The other aspect of it is that I read someone saying like they don't like this movie because, like it's, it's consumerist and, like you know, you don't get the like Cindy Lou who, who's in Whoville singing Dahudore, you know, even though the wrench saw all their presents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Exactly, but you do because they're having fun, even though the bumpuses ate their turkey yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it. But at the same time the child does not have to go through that disappointment. But that's also like, well, you know, as a parent, I kind of don't want my kids to have to learn that yet, while at the same time not wanting them to get to be an adult and not have ever, ever having experienced disappointment, you know. So it's, it's, it's there's, there's a lot in there and it's. It's interesting to me that this movie resonates with so many people, and so many people who haven't had the kind of experience that Ralphie has. There is something very universal and relatable in like the way he and his brother interact and the way he thinks about, like you were talking about in school, where he turns in his essay and he's sure that the teacher is going to be like, hey, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, and everyone's going to cheer for him. I'm like, yeah, we've all been there. And then we've also all been there when we get the C plus back, going like, oh, that bubble is burst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot there. Wow, Well, those are some deep thoughts. Shall I try and do a little. There's too much to explain, but I can sum up. You want to, shall I? Shall I start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you don't mind yeah, go ahead, All right. So I heard some rumination, some deep thoughts about nostalgia and what, how nostalgia works and what it can do and the ways in which it ignores some of the less savory pieces of whatever era it is idealizing. So in this case there's some gender dynamics that we see around the married couple of the old man and mom. There was also some outright racism, specifically around the folks in the Chinese restaurant at the end and also in the way voice over Ralphie talked about his dad liking a bargain. We talked a lot about mom and how she's not a fully foreign character. She's just a mom, and a good one, which is partially the nostalgia thing, Also partially the story being told from the child's point of view, and we talked about the few moments where she does shine through, which are the light fall, the soap in her mouth that tastes bad and the enjoying the snow with her husband at the end, the lack of communication between her and her husband at a couple of moments, notably the lamp which she is mortified by and he adores but they never actually talk about, and the gun which they had talked about in advance because mom said no and dad did it anyway.
Speaker 2:We talked about whether or not Schwartz might be Jewish, Don't know, Not sure where to put that we talked about. We actually went off on a little tangent of our own about this movie as a Christmas movie that leaves some people out Not us but kind of us because of our complicated relationship with Christmas and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. But we just closed up with thinking about sort of both consumerism and anti consumerism and also sort of the idea of disappointment and the so called spirit of Christmas and putting quotes around that kind of overcoming the disappointment of one specific outcome that had been desired. Though in this movie it's complicated because Ralphie got the BB gun. He did pay some consequences but he got the BB gun, but dad didn't get the turkey and they still had a lovely and memorable Christmas. I know I forgot something.
Speaker 1:But you know, the thing that I think is that you missed, that I'd like to underline is that the gift was not so much the BB gun as the fact that his dad sees him yeah, he's seen and understood, and like, actually that makes me tear up thinking about that. There's that a parent would be able to do that without Ralphie having specifically said I want to want yeah, even though if I were the mother I would be so pissed.
Speaker 2:Oh man, seriously, seriously. Divorce lawyer, I mean not any. For me personally, the fact that it's a firearm makes that even bigger, which I know. This is set in the early 40s and our current culture is totally different than it was in the 40s, but yeah yeah, maybe giving too much away right now.
Speaker 1:No, I, my kids, are likely to end up riding motorcycles at some point. A line that I wish I could use, that apparently my spouse's mother used on him when he was a teenager, was like well, you could spend all that money on a motorcycle or it could kill you for free, but my spouse rides. There are other reasons why my kids are likely to ride. I know that that is not something that I can necessarily fight against, but if my spouse were to give my kids a motorcycle even knowing that he would ensure that they took all of the necessary classes, have all of the necessary safety gear, have the best helmet money can buy even knowing that I know that in my bones If he were to gift that to them without talking about it with me first, like the fireball that my head would be, because that is something we need to discuss ahead of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. Well, y'all you know, mary, whatever, yes, winter, thanks for coming along with us. What are we talking about next time?
Speaker 1:So actually aren't you?
Speaker 2:doing next time? Oh yeah, yeah, it is me I am going to share my deep thoughts about. So I married an axe murderer with Mike Myers, which I know.
Speaker 3:Need.
Speaker 2:Now either one of us actually could lead that particular episode, so this will be a good one. We will, I'm sure I know you have deep thoughts about.
Speaker 3:I have.
Speaker 2:All right, see you next time. See you next time. And that we were maybe overthinking that idea. Jake pointed out to us that we had completely missed the negative and potentially harmful stereotypes of Roma people that underlie Robin Hood and little John's cross dressing as fortune tellers in Disney's Robin Hood. We want to hear what you're thinking, but I bet other listeners do too. We have a forum feature on our website at guygirlsmediacom. Come join the conversation. I'll put the link in the show notes. Come on over. Let us know what did we miss? What surprised you? Did we inspire any deep thoughts for you? Be in touch. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Oomlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompeteccom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember up. Culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?