Deep Thoughts about Anime with Lynette Davis

From Dragon Ball Z to Sailor Moon, Studio Ghibli to Death Note, anime is a major hole in Emily and Tracie’s pop culture knowledge. So they were delighted to welcome writer, spiritual director, mental health peer advocate, and self-professed Blerd (Black nerd) Lynette Davis on the show to share her experience of being an anime fan since childhood.

The wide-ranging discussion covers everything from Emily and Tracie’s misconceptions about anime (it’s a medium, not a genre) to what gate-keeping can look like in fandoms that are predominantly white and male to why students of religion may be drawn to art that grapples with what it means to be human.

Join us as Lynette shares how her love for science fiction led to an appreciation for anime and why she loves the cyberpunk anime Psycho-Pass.

Connect with Lynette at lynettedavis.com and check out her Substack, where she writes at the intersection of mental health, spirituality, and the creative life.  

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Cowboy Bebop
Naruto
Dragon Ball Z
Psycho-Pass
Tank Girl
Blade Runner
The Matrix
Studio Ghibli

The Black Nerds Redefining the Culture

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today we have a special guest, my friend Lynette Davis. She will be sharing her deep thoughts about anime with me and my sister, tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters. You know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Like to just have a quick introduction to my friend Lynette. She is a writer, a spiritual director and mental health peer advocate. She believes stories can change the world and create meaning and life and enjoys holding sacred space for healing and spiritual deepening that integrate expressive arts. Lynette writes at the intersection of mental health, spirituality and the creative life on substack at Lynette Davis dot substack dot com. Link in the notes. Lynette is also the author of success to die for breaking down assumptions about anxiety, depression and suicide and their impact on business women, and a contributing author of illuminate, a Quaker Bible study series by Barkley Press.

Speaker 1: 1:36

As a self-proclaimed blurred as in Black Nerd, she adds her geeky interest into the mix and may spontaneously go on a tangent about anime, which is what we're hoping we'll have her do today. So welcome to the podcast, lynette, thank you. So I was really excited to have you come on to talk about anime, in part because I know that you really love the genre and it's one that Tracy and I were just talking before we started recording about. We're a little intimidated by it. I've watched some of the Studio Ghibli movies. My youngest got interested in Naruto recently and has been going around playgrounds doing the Naruto run, which Tracy is. You run forward with your hands behind your back, which is adorable, but other than that, I know very little about anime, about the genre, about why it is as beloved as it is and what it represents, and so we're hoping to kind of have you talk about it, tracy. What do you know about anime?

Speaker 2: 2:35

Yeah, it's a hole for me as well in my sort of understanding of pop culture. I have bumped up against it mainly through my daughter, who is 11, who really got into Death Note for a while and has like a couple of other shows. I'm not going to be able to come up with the names of Demon Slayer maybe, so, like when we go into like hot topic, she'll like explain what I'm looking at on some of the t-shirts and stuff. But that's it. That's really it. And I, as Emily said, I am also intimidated because it feels like such a huge fandom that I don't know the rules or the sort of the story beats, and I definitely am on the outside looking in and I'm a little bit jealous. So I'm excited, I'm really excited to hear from you, lynette. So let's stop talking and let you talk. Why do you love anime? Why is anime sort of the thing that you go off on tangents about?

Speaker 3: 3:33

Yeah, well, first I want to like nitpick at something Anime itself. Anime itself is not a genre. It's I would say it's more of it's a medium Cool Media, because anime itself has many genres and I got into it specifically through the genre of sci-fi. I was introduced to it via my if I had to think that, most likely my at the time stepfather, who was a big movie buff and a big sci-fi buff, and he had all of these VHS's like boxes of them, mountains of them, and he had some really old ones and I think maybe the first one that I watched was probably Astro Boy, and there were a whole bunch of other things that I just don't remember because I was just too young, but I just thought they were all cartoons and, technically speaking, in Japan they are.

Speaker 3: 4:38

A lot of people make it out to be like this completely separate thing, but anime is basically saying Japanese animation, so like, let's debunk that right there, yeah, cool.

Speaker 3: 4:52

So for those who are like, I'm really into me and I'm like, in simplified terms, it's the animation that comes out of studios in Japan, and I think what really set things off for me was Akira, which I'll say it, or Akira, which was a cyberpunk genre, which is a subgenre of sci-fi, and it came out in the late 80s as an anime, I think, and I must have caught it in the early 90s.

Speaker 3: 5:30

So I've essentially been a fan of watching anime since the 90s. I'm an early 90s generation, which there are definitely generations of fans, and that pretty much set it all for me, getting me into that. But I would have to say it wasn't so much because it was anime or animation or anything. I think really what it was for me was the sci-fi. I was already just really enjoying it and when I saw it in cartoon form I was just like what is this? And honestly, akira was the one that just got me completely interested in sci-fi animation specifically. And once I understood the subgenre of cyberpunk, that really became an interest for me, the aesthetics of cyberpunk and me just totally being invested in anything that took aspects of the cyberpunk aesthetics, for instance the Matrix, which definitely took aesthetics from cyberpunk genre.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Can you tell us more about cyberpunk? Give us a quick nutshell definition for the newbies.

Speaker 3: 6:49

Yeah, I mean, I would say I think, especially for Western cyberpunk essentially is high tech with I think I'm going to actually just try to quote something that I read high tech, low life or low life high tech. So a lot of cyberpunk genre is dystopian, futuristic.

Speaker 2: 7:18

Like is tank girl cyberpunk.

Speaker 3: 7:21

I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I heard of that.

Speaker 2: 7:27

Oh, I think you'd like tank girl.

Speaker 1: 7:29

It's only the comic book, and then that one movie, right, that movie, yeah I think I'm going to have to check that out. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Describing the Matrix as cyberpunk just blew my mind because, yes, that fits. I think of the aesthetic of cyberpunk as like the Victorian cyberpunk, because that's where I see it most often, where it's high tech. Oh, steampunk. Yeah so yeah, that's where I think of it. But I guess William Gibson would be kind of like cyberpunk as well. What?

Speaker 2: 8:04

about Blade Runner.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, oh yes.

Speaker 3: 8:07

Blade Runner Definitely Blade Runner. As a matter of fact, a lot of anime that takes after cyberpunk genre were inspired by the novel Blade Runner.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Okay, all right.

Speaker 3: 8:20

Yes, that came out.

Speaker 2: 8:22

So high tech, low life, that's. Blade Runner is where I went after tank girl. So, okay, I'm with you. Now I am with you.

Speaker 3: 8:29

Yeah. So I realized then, although parts of Akira when I was a kid I was like what the heck am I watching? And actually I feel that way about a lot of cyberpunk.

Speaker 3: 8:41

I'm like what is this grabbing popcorn, but I can't stop watching kids. I think for me, I grew a love for that genre because a lot of the very first anime that I really loved, which was Akira Ghost in the Shell, one of the anime I was gonna bring up was Psycho Pass, and a newer one that is definitely Cyberpunk and I loved it, was Akudama, which I thought was just great. Yeah, I really got into specific genres, whereas I think with a lot of anime fans, especially the new ones that are coming in, they tend to like what you were kind of talking about with Naruto and I forgot what with the, the other one that you just said, which are all shonen, which is basically voice like a boy genre is the action and very popular and that's what's making anime, in my opinion, very popular, mainstream.

Speaker 1: 9:48

Yeah, the my, my youngest, wanted me to watch Naruto with him, and one of the things, one of the reasons why I think Tracy and I have been a little intimidated, is some of it has to do with the fact that it is a storytelling expectations that are different from what we grew up with. You know, we grew up with Western storytelling expectations. So as I'm watching Naruto with my 10 year old, I'm sitting there going like I don't really get what's going on, and I think some of that has to do with it. There's a difference in what an audience is going to expect from a story structure.

Speaker 1: 10:25

If you grew up with Western story structures, western ideas of what constitutes conflict, ideas of you know, what you spend time on in a story and so kind of getting past that feeling of difference, I think can be part of what can be a little difficult for Western audiences to get into. But then there's with Naruto. I know what my son really loved about. It was something that was very universal. It was a story of this boy who's an underdog and coming into his own powers and learning to have friends and and and all of those things which are very, very universal. So even as the story beats were a little weird for me like what am I watching? What's going on? Why are we watching this? There were aspects of it where I could tell oh, I understand why my kid loves this and is running with his arms behind him whenever he's on the playground.

Speaker 3: 11:18

I'm laughing so hard. I think I'm like wow, a new generation of Naruto runners. They were doing that when my little brother was a kid. I happen to miss that, but but because the boys were not doing that until run when I was in grade school, I don't think it was out yet quite frankly, we grew up on Dragon Ball Z.

Speaker 3: 11:42

Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon were like the main things but, like I said, I was already watching it, but I didn't know it was anime. I didn't know that it was anime and so I think I was in my 20s. So I think you said something really important that I didn't think about is how do we come and approach anime? I approached it from a level of sci-fi, so I wasn't really aware that I was watching anime, and so my perspective on why I was interested in it is probably going to differ for those who are watching shonen. Anime like Naruto or Demon Slayer is another one that you mentioned. Those are all shown in genre and I would say the the inside joke is a lot of those fairy tale, bleach and all of that it has. This theme of the power of love and friendship will save the day and it's definitely the shonen genre is kind of like my little pony.

Speaker 2: 12:42

Is that what I'm?

Speaker 3: 12:42

saying no, my little pony, is something different, although I mean there are bronies, but yes yes, yes, there seems to be this definite theme, and shonen is like the power of friendship will help save the day, and a lot of them are underdog stories which is kind of what I was talking about.

Speaker 2: 13:08

That are you know, I guess, likes? So you named shonen genre as sort of like the boys. Is that in contradistinction, are you? Are you sort of separating that from your side? The sci-fi, cyberpunk, sci-fi and cyberpunk that you were drawn to were those less kind of male driven.

Speaker 3: 13:26

I wouldn't say that they were less male driven, it's just those are the specific categories that those anime are labelled under. So, okay, demon slayer, naruto and the other ones that I mentioned, those are all classified as shonen. They are purposely marketed to a young boy audience. What happened is they just ended up mass appealing, especially over I can't speak of other places, but they ended up mass appealing over here in Western culture. And so I know demon slayer, the demon slayer movie. It's like one of the highest grossing films in Japan and it became one of the highest grossing anime, I think, of all time. So that's how popular that that genre is. I am an anime underdog. You know like so a lot of the things that people are creating in the fandom around there. Like you're a true fan, I'm like, yeah, I don't actually really watch that genre so I don't really keep up with the things that are like really popular and what seeing.

Speaker 3: 14:33

Like oh, are you an anime fan? Yeah, I've been watching anime before you were born, but I just didn't take to certain genres. Now I know about all those genres and I'll watch a few episodes, but those aren't the things that I particularly like as much. Not because they're not good, it's just sure they're a little bit. It doesn't have to continue over me. I'm like, yeah, to continual, yeah yeah, like a lot of them are manga and like their manga is still ongoing.

Speaker 3: 15:05

It's like 50,000 episodes and I'm like I need a strong start and a strong end. This is you're dragging it and a lot of them have a lot of fillers episodes. So like right now, because they created a live action when Netflix one piece which was a very popular anime when I, I would say, as I was, I would say, around my brother, who is about four years younger than me when he was coming up in high school that was very, very popular and it's kind of resurfaced as popular all over again because of the live action. As a matter of fact, people who never watched anime because of the live action, that was is actually good, because sometimes, when they converted to live actions, like what heck is this? Like Avatar, for instance?

Speaker 3: 16:03

yes but apparently they did that one good. It's bringing in new anime fans so?

Speaker 2: 16:10

so that's a really interesting moment that you're pointing to, to your nitpick point, where you corrected us in the beginning that it's it's a, it's a medium, it's not actually a genre. So, yeah, so this is a. So when we make a live action of something that happened in an anime or had been manga, which is just make sure that I have this right manga is Japanese comic books, yeah, so graphic novels, but from Japan specifically, yeah, and that's the same as anime.

Speaker 2: 16:39

It's a medium, not a genre correct yeah, so that when we take it from manga to anime, we're moving it from one medium to a related but different medium, and when we take it from anime to a live action, again that happens.

Speaker 3: 16:54

So it's the same story but different medium yeah, and sometimes I switch it up, so yeah a little bit like sometimes they stick to the script and sometimes they don't right right like any adaptation.

Speaker 2: 17:05

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 17:07

That makes a lot of sense well and that that's interesting what you're saying about how you need to have a distinct beginning, middle and end. Tracy, and I've talked before about how well we are bit commitment phobic about things that just keep going. I am not a fan of the Marvel cinematic universe because the number of films is too much and my feeling is, if you can't tell a story in 10 hours or less, and I'm not interested. But that that's interesting to me. It seems like a cultural aspect of different media. Our last episode that we recorded was about the X files and I was talking about how, when it was airing and I was a huge fan I went against the grain.

Speaker 1: 17:52

I did not like the mythology episodes and I think it was in part because even as, like a teenager, young 20-something, I had this understanding that the mythology episodes weren't going to add up to much of anything because of the way American television works, like you just keep trying to get more seasons to squeeze all the juice out of a lemon that you can, and so you often end up with a final season that makes no sense, whereas in Europe England specifically, like they will have you know, this is the story.

Speaker 1: 18:23

It's going to be told in six episodes and then we're done, instead of keep trying to come back for more. And so it sounds like in Japan, within the medium of anime or even manga, it sounds like there is a, again, another cultural expectation. Like you know, it's okay to have filler, it's okay to just something keep something going and going and going, because fans love it, which is also, again, different a little bit from how Americans handle their favorite franchises, and so I'm just wondering is that something that you've noticed? Is there, is there a different expectation for how these things continue? Is it a little bit like how, like Batman, can have a beginning, middle and end story, but the character will always continue? Or is it? Is it more like the X-files, where they're like, well, the mythology doesn't make any sense anymore, but just keep going, just keep going yeah, I think it depends.

Speaker 3: 19:19

It depends on, perhaps, the studio that's developing the anime and also the writers and what they want to do with it. There have been instances where writers and mangaka because a lot of them start as manga's mangaka are the people that create the manga where they burn out and some of them have died or gotten really ill trying to keep up with the demands of the industry. So and I know quite a few really popular artists that have I've heard or read about that have had severe mental health issues because of that and that that might I'm not sure that might be a cultural thing. I don't pretend that I know a lot about Japanese culture, although spending a year in Hawaii I got really acquainted with Japanese culture, but I won't pretend that I'm an expert on that because I watch anime. Like I am not an expert on Japanese culture, I happen to just be a fan of an aspect that comes out of Japanese culture so that it's interesting my my spouse.

Speaker 1: 20:38

When I met him he was working for Honda in America. Honda in America had kind of the worst aspects of American corporate culture and Japanese corporate culture mixed together as one. Not a good situation for anyone's mental health, but that burnout I am familiar with that level of burnout and work exhaustion in engineering because I've seen it first hand. It didn't even occur to me that there would be an artistic version of that as well, in part because in America we don't consider art to be real work.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Yeah, if you're gonna talk about those differences, that will be one of them, because this is a really big money industry. You know it's making Waves here, especially when I first started going to like comic-cons and anime conventions there were not that many and it was not something that you proudly say or you posted on Instagram or whatever. Instagram wasn't around yet. I'm like what did we have before Facebook? I don't remember.

Speaker 1: 21:49

Back in my face days Friendster. Do you remember Friendster?

Speaker 3: 21:55

Friendster, I was on Black Planet, or Mike Miente, something like that. You know, like we didn't go around like, yeah, I'm going to the geek convention with my cosplay, but now it's become like this big thing. And, speaking of Marvel, we have all the big Marvel stars going to it and these people are making a quite a bit of money Because of the fandom culture that has increased and become popular.

Speaker 1: 22:27

So it's interesting mentioning that, and Tracy and I and I think we talked, before we started recording, a little bit about gatekeeping Within the fandom and I'm thinking about the different levels of gatekeeping in so many different directions. So you know, I can kind of comprehend. You know someone who, like you, has been going to comic-cons since before. It was cool, literally. I'm feeling a little weird about the people who feel like Johnny come lately, who are showing up like this is the great place to be. Not that I think that you do any kind of gatekeeping like that at all. You've always been very welcoming, but it's kind of a human nature to be like. You know, I was doing this back when you could get beat up for it.

Speaker 2: 23:10

It's interesting too, because I heard Lynette say that she's that people are gatekeeping Her because she doesn't like the the right kind of genre. Yeah, yeah, are you even a real anime fan, because you don't like the this specific genre.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Well, and then I'm thinking about so I draw not well, I like cartooning and I took a class at Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design with this amazingly talented cartoonist who was like so intimidating and I was very much the dilettante in the classroom because there were a lot of people who were very, very good, including some high school students who were trying to put together a portfolio and the Instructor who had gone to RISD, the Rhode Island School of Design. She was telling especially the high school students, like don't draw anime eyes, don't draw manga eyes, because that will immediately get you off the list If you put that in your portfolio to go to RISD or pretty much anywhere else. And so that I had that thought about gatekeeping there as well, because I'm sitting there and I couldn't do manga anime eyes if you paid me a million dollars, like I Don't have that skill. But there's this kind of gatekeeping saying like this is good cartooning, this is like low cartooning and like not worth it and you know they won't take you seriously at a serious institution.

Speaker 1: 24:33

And then meanwhile there's also like this is our little geekdom, you can't join this little geekdom and so you get all these weird hierarchies of what is the right kind of way to enjoy Art, which is very weird because it's all about enjoying art and stories.

Speaker 3: 24:51

There are so many directions we can go in this and I try to catch myself too. For me, I'm enjoying Personally seeing so many people incidents. It benefits me Because with more people being interested in it, there's more events, there's more people I could talk to about it. I come out and like, yeah, I like this, I, and it's like, oh cool. You know, like I think every February I post like 28 days of black cosplay and celebration of black nerd culture.

Speaker 3: 25:24

And like it's become my thing and people kind of look forward to it, and it's something that I wish I had the confidence to do when I was much younger, but you know I didn't. So I enjoy actually seeing the younger kids come and they have opportunities that didn't exist, like they can make a career out of their love and their fandom, which is really awesome to me, you know, and a lot of us who maybe were like, oh yeah, that's never going to happen, like now we're going. Sometimes we can look up to the kids too. You know like I'm totally interested in creating an animation series.

Speaker 3: 26:03

Now that's something I never thought that I would be interested in doing. It's something that I never thought I would actually attempt to do. But because the fandom has grown and it has diversified, I'm like I don't know I might actually be able to do this and do this in a way that I really want to. So I try to catch myself. I mean, I get annoyed sometimes, but I don't know, it might be like a reverse gatekeeping thing, because people are talking about stuff and you know like I'll have a moment where I'm like, gasp, you haven't heard of this. Or they've like remember this old one? Or you know they'll talk about certain genre.

Speaker 3: 26:43

And I'm like what is that? Or that's dumb, and I'm like this is actually really good storytelling, we're, you know. But it's not so much a gatekeeping thing for me, it's kind of like are you not seeing this? This is brilliant, you know. So it's more like that too.

Speaker 3: 27:01

I do try to catch myself because when I first came into anime, actually you know what, I didn't have that much problem with gatekeeping. I was actually. I think I was like one of the only girls in my circle and I think then the guys were just kind of like yeah, she's cool, she's with us. And especially back then, back then Mecca, I would say, because Mecca genre really came out in like the sixties. That's like oh your robot, and you know so Transformers kind of spanned off of that when that came out. And Gundam big, oh my gosh, gundam verse, that's like this big thing and a huge fandom. Actually that's where I saw a lot of gatekeeping when I was first coming into it. But I think that anime fandom gatekeeping is not that far or different from Star Trek or Star Wars gatekeeping, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 28:05

I actually that sounds right to me, based on just what you've shared here and thinking about like growing up as a science fiction fan, even as like a white Jewish kid, girl kid, you know like it was. Like, like you say, it was not a thing that I like shared openly. You know, I mean I wasn't going to conventions, but I totally would have.

Speaker 1: 28:27

Like that took us to one, Remember he did.

Speaker 2: 28:29

I feel like he did yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:31

And like, but I didn't tell people about that.

Speaker 2: 28:33

It's like not a thing that I shared and it was actually kind of a thing that, like, I mean, I loved it, but it was something I felt like I needed to keep secret in order for my street cred, or I don't know.

Speaker 2: 28:45

That's not how I thought about it, but you know what I mean, I do and that's what I'm hearing you say.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Right, like it was a thing that you loved, but you had to kind of keep close to the chest unless you knew you were safe with other fans, which is different than gatekeeping, because the gatekeeping right is when the other fans are like, well, you're not a real fan because you're not like me, but this is more like that, that social pressure that if you're, if you're, if you're different, then you're not cool.

Speaker 2: 29:11

And I'm really curious to hear what you think, what you both think about this, because what's occurring to me as the three of us are talking is that part of the problem for us, specifically the three of us, is that science fiction has been coded as male, science fiction is a thing for boys, and so the three of us that we liked it, we were like that's not supposed to be for you, and I'm wondering if that's, if you're, if you two are also feeling that, because that's where I'm like. I think when you said, lynette, that you were often like the only girl in the circle, you know, in the circle of friends watching the anime, I was like right, right, because it's not coded for us. How does that land?

Speaker 3: 29:50

Yeah, that sounds about right. Like I think that was one of the reasons why I didn't talk about my love of sci-fi and, like I said, it was my stepfather that introduced me to sci-fi. I don't know Like it's something that I embrace now, but I was always caught and considered weird and I was always a geek. So even though I was trying to have some street cred, it was already a done deal. I was just not Not. My saving grace was that, you know, my brothers and stuff made sure my brothers and my friends, which were mostly guys, made sure that I wouldn't get bullied. But other than that I probably would have been seriously bullied. But I feel as though, especially if you're a fan of this genre, we can get kept a lot Like I think it's some really hardcore sci-fi and cyberpunk anime fans or watching this. They will probably be course correcting me Like she's saying anime or she's, I don't know, like I said anime in the beginning. But you did, you did.

Speaker 2: 30:55

We have receipts. It's in the recording.

Speaker 3: 30:58

Or you know, like there are so many different things to nitpick at and so many ways this conversation could have gone where I think men would man-splain certain things because they feel that it should be explained in this way or that way, and I feel that with sci-fi there was a lot of that. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like maybe it was that way. As a matter of fact, in seminary I took a class literally called Theology in Sci-Fi. It was like my favorite class. That sounds fantastic, that class. When I saw that, I was like, yes, I don't care if it has nothing to do with my degree, I'm taking that class. And I'm still like, yeah, how do I incorporate that into my ministry work? But anyway, one of the things I knowed, first of all, I was pleasantly surprised of how many women were in the class. It was actually a very fair amount of different genders and gender identities in that class, which I loved. But one of the things we were talking about was what's considered sci-fi? Where does sci-fi start in fantasy? Where does fantasy end? And we brought up Frankenstein and originally it was kind of classified yeah, this is sci-fi. But then it was like, oh wait, a woman wrote this. No, it's fantasy and it's just like wait a minute. It's just like when a woman's name is behind it, then all of a sudden, let's strip some credit away from that or let's take from that.

Speaker 3: 32:45

I think the same thing happens within genres. Even a lot of the anime that I like and I'm talking about, most of the directors and writers behind it are actually men, and I'm like, yeah, there has to be some that don't have male writers in this genre, and I probably need to look a little bit more closely at that, because I know the ones that I do like that aren't in that genre, which would be shoujo, where I said, the popularity of shounen Shoujo is marketed towards more girls. And then there's another genre that's more marketed towards an older woman, which I cannot remember the name of it, and those will be shows like Nana, which that was another one where the writer got sick and just left us hanging a little bit, or Paradise Kiss, for instance. Those are for more mature girls or women, but those are the only times that I know a woman wrote those, and it makes me actually kind of go.

Speaker 3: 33:52

Yeah, I need to pay closer attention to who's writing and directing these films. There was this site called Anime Feminist or Feminist Anime or something like that, where they reviewed sites to talk about whether or not certain anime had elements that could be trauma inducing or things like that, and I thought that was really thoughtful, like that's something by like, more and more people are coming and creating these new things. That are really exciting for me.

Speaker 1: 34:21

Something interesting that I'm wondering about thinking about being a woman in a space that's coded as male in sci-fi fandom. So, like, my foray into X-Files fandom was okay because I was a shipper and I didn't really experience like. I knew that I wasn't supposed to like science fiction but I didn't really care. And the first time I really like came up against it in a way that blew my mind I was 22, was my first roommate out of college, was a guy, we didn't. It was you know. We found each other on Craigslist. It was one of those things, and we both really liked the book series Otherland by Tad Williams, and so when the new book came out, I was working at Barnes Noble at the time and I think I picked up a copy for him as well as a copy for me. I don't remember exactly how it came, went down, but his mother said why is Emily reading this? It's science fiction, that's for guys, and I remember being like this is it's 2001.

Speaker 1: 35:17

What's wrong with you and the thing that I think I'm curious for your experience, lynette, is if there was any intersection of like, not only male coded, but also like white male coded. If that's something that you've ever experienced, where, like why do you like this? You're a black woman or you know it's supposed to be for the you know awkward white guys, because I know I had never heard the term blurred until it's probably been about 15 years ago now, but I know that that is something that existed for a lot longer than the first time I heard the term. And the first time I heard the idea of Black Nerd I was like like Erkel, which is kind of horrifying. That's the only cultural connection that I had was, you know, this caricature that poor Jaliel White was stuck playing for so long. So I'm just curious how that played out for you. You know, in part because you had family who were also very interested in science fiction. I'm sure that that changed dynamics somewhat, but what was your experience with that, particularly with the anime world?

Speaker 3: 36:24

I think in my case I lucked out. I think especially modern blurred culture and you know what? I had this conversation in the group before where people were talking about their experiences in schools and growing up and how hard it was to kind of integrate Blackness with all of the things that they were interested in. But I realized there was a difference when I grew up. I went to schools with primarily Black children and I had Black teachers and I think that makes a world of difference, to be honest. So I did not leave the confides of a majority people of color city until middle school and I went to primarily White high school et cetera, et cetera. But I already had the foundation and so I was already around a whole bunch of people of color. My school that I went to was actually very diverse and the White people who went to the school, well, they were entrenched in hip hop culture, so they were like us. So being a Black nerd really was just, I was just a Black nerd. You know. It wasn't really anything else. I didn't start understanding things like intersectionality until I went to all White schools and stuff like that. So I want to make that, I want to put that out there Because I feel like that's actually important to context.

Speaker 3: 38:01

Being raised in a majority White town, having White teachers versus me, that wasn't my upbringing. I was always around Black people and other people of color and I had the wisdom of elders surrounding me, which is probably why I ended up being what they call an old soul. So in my case it wasn't so strange because I had my own goals and my stepfather and stuff and they were playing that, knowing that I was there. So they didn't look at me any differently. I was. They played it and was like here, come watch this.

Speaker 3: 38:43

And by the time I got to high school, which was a primarily White high school, I think that by that time Southern Moon and Dragon Ball Z was really the big thing and I watched that and we were all into that and we were kind of in grunge, post-grunge, you know. So like it wasn't really a big deal really. I think I just kind of lucked out because of the area that I grew up in, which is not the case for a lot of other Black nerds. So I can't speak to an experience that I didn't actually have. Yeah, in my case it wasn't so much I had to deal with. Oh well, you're a Black girl and you shouldn't like this or anything like that. I was fully embraced within my circle. It was more like you just didn't want to be a geek. You're not, like it didn't matter, like you just didn't want to be a geek. But I wasn't going around like throwing up Star Trek signs or anything you know which. I was watching all that.

Speaker 3: 39:58

You know I was watching the original series reruns and I was next generation.

Speaker 2: 40:04

Yeah, same same.

Speaker 3: 40:05

So, yeah, like within my family and stuff it was. I was just the weird geeky bookwormy Lynette, so I don't think I paid that much attention to how does this reflect in the rest of culture? I did not become aware of the dynamics of wait there's some sexism and everything like that going on until college. Yeah, that's when that kicked in for me. So I'm not sure if I answered your question.

Speaker 1: 40:38

That you did.

Speaker 1: 40:39

Actually, I think it's it speaks to how important it is to have just open and welcoming communities and the ability to see yourself reflected in so many different ways and see people who are not like you reflected in so many different ways, Like that's.

Speaker 1: 40:56

That's one of the concerns that I have with where we are and where my sons are going to school.

Speaker 1: 41:02

You know it is majority white and the teachers are majority white, and that's something like I want them to have the experience of knowing that not everybody looks like them and that there are stories being told about people who are very different from them. And so you know it's such a, it's a blessing that usually only white boys get yeah, and white girls too, but just that you know you get to see like, oh, I can choose to be anything because there's so many different ways to be, Whereas if you are the only black person in a classroom, if you're the only Jewish person in a school, you feel like you have to be one thing because you are the only one. I'm so glad that you had that and that you were able to be. You know all of you in all of your wonderful, geeky ways, growing up and not experience it until college, when you were probably in a much better emotional place and maturity place to be able to handle it.

Speaker 3: 41:59

I wish that was true. It wasn't Because of other dynamics but I see where you were going with that.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Yeah, it's just hard. Yeah, lynette, we have been talking a lot about sort of meta and fandoms and sort of the like bigger picture, and we're running out of time, but I want to give you the opportunity, since, since the focus of our show is usually like much more like drilled down, I heard you say that you wanted to maybe talk about is it psychopaths?

Speaker 3: 42:29

Yeah, we could talk a little bit about psychopaths.

Speaker 2: 42:33

It's a lot to ask you to do something briefly, but can you just like what is it and why do you love it? And then we can at least give you the opportunity to give us like a taste of like this specific piece that you wanted to bring to us. Like, what's the story, what are the characters, why do you love it?

Speaker 3: 42:51

Yeah, you know what, when I first was thinking about that, I haven't watched Psychopaths in forever, that's okay. It was just one of the first things that kind of popped out of my mouth because it was a very clear cyberpunk genre, but also it's a psychological thriller, which is another thing that I really like. And sometimes I question my taste. I'm like, why do I like these things? No-transcript. I think what was interesting to me about Psychopaths was, while I was in theology and sci-fi, one of the big questions that we kept asking as we analyzed different films and novels and books I said books and comic books and stuff like that was the question of what does it mean to be human? And what I enjoyed about Psychopaths is I felt like that was one of the anime that I could go. It's kind of asking us again what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be human? And then what does it mean for all of us humans to create a society and why are we after this utopian society and at what cost are we willing to have this utopian society? And in Psychopaths it's a psychological thriller, because it's actually a very gruesome anime especially. I didn't complete all of the movies and everything. So I'm still I need to like make my way back to it, because they just had a movie come out in May and I haven't watched it yet, but the premise of it is there is this system that pretty much guides society. It's called the Sybil System and it pretty much is like this omnipresent system that is constantly monitoring our brain input and whether or not we reach a certain score or have a certain color hue is what determines what our life will be or whether or not we will be killed in the name of trying to make sure that everybody is positively happy in this society, or sensor rehab center, where you can learn to be happy again. And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is a society that's controlled by a system and it makes decisions on your life based off of whether or not you have a high potentiality, I suppose, to commit crime. And the system is essentially there to judge everybody and I think it goes more into that with Season 2 whether or not the system deserves to be judged. But it's supposed to be objective and take out human subjectivity, hence democracy. There is no democracy because that's space in human subjectivity.

Speaker 3: 45:55

And I just I thought that it was really good because it has that big overarching theme of what makes a utopian society and, in order to have it, what type of society are we going to create? Are we going to create a society that basically you are kind of puppets and the question of who do we sacrifice for the greater good? Are you willing to sacrifice and get rid of or hide away certain populations of people in order for us to have this utopian, happy society? And that's the gist of what it was, and the background of it is the story of people who are these detectives, who are supposed to uphold this system, and they're a two-part team, essentially of inspectors who are basically responsible for it. But, mind you, in this society you're supposed to remain happy. So if they're apprehending criminals who are actually doing crimes like murdering people and stuff, well, they don't want to touch that because that's too dirty for them, and so what they do is they create a team of these people called basically to call them hounds, but I'm trying to remember the name of what they're called enforcers who are latent criminals, to actually do the dirty work for them. And the whole system is really interesting because, like one of the enforcers was deemed a latent criminal at five. So at five years old, because the system deemed that they had the potential to become a criminal, lock them away at five years old and they did not get much of a choice in life on what they could be. It was like either be in isolation, because they had a zero probability of being able to be reformed, to be a citizen in society, or become an enforcer.

Speaker 3: 47:57

There were so many themes in this anime that just pissed me off and also made me so interested, and I think probably because of the antagonists in the story, who happened to love dystopian literature in Shakespeare and actually quotes 1984 in the anime and you see him constantly reading different dystopian literature. So he's like he's reading all of these philosophers and quoting them. So I'm like this has to be good. You know you're going to bring all this philosophy into this and it's just really interesting perspectives. It's like sometimes people, especially when it seems like here's this force for good, here's this force for evil and you want to go for that, but because the antagonist is doing such gruesome things and manipulating the system a certain way to make a point, it's like I can't really side with you. So that's like me trying to like drown this down into like a really narrow thing.

Speaker 1: 49:10

You sold me. I'm like I have to watch this now because that is to all of my catnip.

Speaker 2: 49:15

I think what's what I'm hearing that I think is really like the thing that's clicking for me is that this person you who also has this very rich spiritual life like the idea that this piece of art that really asks deep questions about what is worthiness, like what is human worthiness the fact that that appeals to you, who also has this deep spiritual connection, like makes perfect sense to me, like that really makes sense because like thinking about worthiness and what it means to be human, and like opportunities for redemption, like those are all beats. That appeal to people who spend time in seminary, as someone who spent time in a divinity school, like, yeah, makes total sense to me.

Speaker 3: 50:03

So thank you, I'm glad you said that, because I'm like. Why do I like?

Speaker 1: 50:07

this I see why, I had like, as you were describing it, there were a bunch of things that kind of came up for me, like the Ursula K Le Guin story, those who walk away from Omeylo and gosh, a couple other things like where it's the same sort of like at what price do we put social good?

Speaker 2: 50:31

like what price?

Speaker 1: 50:33

Yeah the watchman was the other one I was thinking like. Who watches the watchman? And you know so many of these different science fiction and speculative fiction that grapples with similar well, even the good place. You know that's an entirely objective view of how good or how worthy a person is and how interesting it is to grapple with that, with that's really ugly truth within human nature that's you know there is no such thing as unworthy.

Speaker 1: 51:01

There's no such thing as worthy. It's all shades of gray. And yeah, I find that fascinating and you know, have loved those kinds of questions from all the way back when I was in high school and reading crime and punishment you know like it reminds me of that as well, like what is what makes a human being worthy? What makes a human being unworthy, capable of redemption and incapable of redemption? All of those questions. So yeah, this sounds phenomenal if it's on my to be watched list now.

Speaker 3: 51:30

Yeah, yeah, I'm like, be for warned, it is very gruesome, cool, I can do gruesome. There are scenes of gruesomeness that the antagonist he's trying to make a point about the lack of will of humanity, and it's one of the scenes that is definitely like it's so in your face it, but it totally does. What it does is that people are so in the system that they're literally witnessing murder right in front of their face. And because the system does not recognize him, because he is asymptomatic. So when you're asymptomatic the system can't judge you. So to prove a point of this thoughtless system, there's this really gruesome scene of somebody getting murdered and everybody's literally sitting there around watching it happen in shock and they don't know what to do and they don't want to get angry or emotional because then it will change the color of their you and then they will become criminals.

Speaker 2: 52:42

Wow, this has been delightful and we've taken a lot of your time already so.

Speaker 2: 52:47

I'm gonna try quickly to kind of recap what we talked about. Feel free to nuance or correct or add so, but I'm gonna start from the very beginning, which is that Emily and I were mistaken, because anime is not a genre. It is a medium in which there are many genres, and I heard from you, lynette, that your favorite is sci-fi and within that even cyberpunk, which tends to be a dystopian kind of sci-fi, high-tech lowlife. I like it and we talked about we actually had pretty ranging conversation right. So we talked about the ways that science fiction has been coded by gender, especially in the west, but it sounds like not just in the west, since there are specific genre coded by gender coming out of Japanese studios. We talked about the fact that manga, which is Japanese graphic novels or comic books, and anime are related, not the same, and how the story is kind of they they keep going like our lives, sometimes burning out the artists and writers creating them.

Speaker 2: 53:53

And then we got into, we talked a little bit about the ways that sort of being the only changes things like the three of us share the fact that we were sort of a little secretive about being science fiction geeks when we were kids. That it sounds like. Maybe some of the younger kids, even girls, don't need to be quite a secretive, at least maybe not about anime, which is great. And your experience, lynette, of growing up predominantly around black folks, with black teachers, allowed you to sort of unapologetically just be who you are, at least in that aspect of it, which is awesome. I wish that we all could have that for all of our children.

Speaker 2: 54:37

And, lastly, I invited lastly, that I remember, and you guys are going to add, I invited you to share a bit about psychopaths, which sounds like is a dystopian psychological thriller that asks deep questions about human worthiness, about what we're willing to sacrifice in order to have a utopian or good I'm putting quotes around that word society, and who we're willing to sacrifice for that and some of the consequences of those sacrifices. And what did I forget?

Speaker 1: 55:11

we talked a little bit about gatekeeping in a way and how that that can affect someone's experience of a medium or genre or fandom and the ways in which, like, gatekeeping kind of reflects a sort of snobbery and there's different types of snobbery and you know there's the Rhode Island Institute which yeah, where it's not gonna allow people in who are drawing manga style snobbery.

Speaker 1: 55:43

But then there's also the oh well, if you don't, and if you don't watch this, then you're not really a fan of anime, you know, and if you don't pronounce it correctly, you're not really a fan. So, like there's all these different interlocking levels of snobbery, of which seems to be like I don't reject you, you don't reject me, I reject you. It feels like is there anything else we missed, lynette, that you would love to put an underline underneath of?

Speaker 3: 56:12

yeah, I mean, of course, I'm definitely like. Yeah, I mean if, if you're into sci-fi, even if you're not into anime, you know, if you're into sci-fi, at least check out the sci-fi anime. Right now, I would say crunchy roll is probably one of the better places to get access to all of this. It used to be Funimation. I liked Funimation better. You can even find it on YouTube. Yeah, like to check out some of those and you know if you're into the aesthetics of cyberpunk, then I would check it out.

Speaker 3: 56:46

You know, I do want to mention something, because cyberpunk really started as subgenre of sci-fi here in western culture. I think for Japan it actually derived out of punk rock culture, more so than a sci-fi genre. So I wanted to to make the distinction.

Speaker 1: 57:07

That is fascinating, and thinking about how those two things would like affect each other. You know, like punk rock and and science fiction it is. It is fascinating, yeah, about, and we could go off on another hour long yeah, I suspect.

Speaker 2: 57:23

Are there any questions, lynette, that you wish we had asked you?

Speaker 3: 57:28

um no, those are good questions.

Speaker 2: 57:31

Okay, all right, I want to give you the opportunity to share what we forgot to ask okay, um, where can our listeners find you, lynette?

Speaker 1: 57:40

what's the best way for them to see all the different things that you're doing? Order a copy of your fantastic book. Any of those things where? Where can they find you?

Speaker 3: 57:49

yeah, I would say my main hub, lynette Daviscom, and that's going to link to my sub stack and my book and and everything else will be for warrant. Most of my stuff is mental health and spirituality, but I think even in my sub stack newsletter I put you know there's a subtle hint of blurb.

Speaker 2: 58:16

Yeah, we will make sure to put the links in the show notes, folks. So if you can't remember, find the show notes and we will link to Lynette's website and sub stack.

Speaker 1: 58:24

Yes. So, tracy, I believe next time you are going to be hosting what, uh what are we gonna be talking about next time?

Speaker 2: 58:31

Yes, yes, it's my turn and I am going to be sharing my deep thoughts about Fragile Rock.

Speaker 1: 58:35

Hey down in Fragile Rock. Well, thank you so much, lynette, and I will see you next time, tracy.

Speaker 3: 58:45

Bye, bye thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:48

Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetekcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember Up. Culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?