Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast

Deep Thoughts about Harry Potter with Dr. Julian Wamble

• Tracie Guy-Decker & Emily Guy Birken • Episode 5

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CW: Abstract discussion of rape.

What if being a muggle actually isn’t a bad thing? J.K. Rowling’s wizarding world of the Harry Potter franchise changed the way we think and talk. But was it for the better?

Professor Julian Wamble joins Tracie and Emily for a fascinating deep dive into the ways the Harry Potter universe and characters are reflections of our world’s problematic structural and chronic biases and oppressions. 

From the fat-phobia embedded in our dislike for Dudley Dursley to the complex femininity of Delores Umbridge to the self-serving saviorism in Hermione’s attempted allyship of the house elves, the Harry Potter universe provides a mirror to contemporary society–if we’re willing to look.

The Titan submersible, on a tourist trip to view the wreck of the Titanic (at $250,000 per seat), imploded on June 18, 2023, instantly killing all 5 people aboard. Four days prior, a ship smuggling between 500 and 750 people sank in the Mediterranean Sea. Despite a search-and-rescue operation, nearly 500 people were "presumed dead." 


Want EVEN more deep thughts about Harry Potter? Explore supremacy, race, politics, and other societal structures baked into the Harry Potter universe with Dr. Julian Wamble’s TikTok (@profw)

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon. 

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head Today? My sister, tracy Guy-Dekker, and I are delighted to welcome Dr Julian Wambel, who will be sharing his Deep Thoughts about Harry Potter with us and with you.

Speaker 2:

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. Come over and think with us as we delve into our Deep Thoughts about stupid shit.

Speaker 3:

So Julian is an assistant professor of political science at George Washington University, where his research focuses on race and ethnic politics. He's an avid runner and reader who also moonlights as a singer when he's not teaching or in a Peloton class. Julian also has a remarkable TikTok presence in which he shares truly deep thoughts about the Harry Potter universe, which is how we came to know Julian. Julian, welcome to Deep Thoughts about stupid shit.

Speaker 4:

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I will just say that it is really crazy that my rants and rambles on TikTok have brought me to this place. I just want everyone to know that this was very unplanned and I just don't want anyone to think like I thought this is the plan, this is the way that I'm going to like make it on TikTok. That was not the case.

Speaker 1:

Well, they are some of my favorite TikToks. Like props to the TikTok algorithm because it knew that I was going to love your content.

Speaker 4:

It's really a crazy, crazy thing, but I really appreciate that.

Speaker 1:

So usually on our show one of us will ask the other how we know or remember the week's topic. So we're going to start with Tracy's and my Harry Potter discovery stories and then we've got some questions for you, julian. So I will just talk about I first encountered Harry Potter when I was a senior in college. It was the 2000-2001 school year.

Speaker 1:

I didn't realize how quickly that time would pass. I was actually sick, I had a really bad head cold, and a friend of mine loaned me her copy of the first book of Harry Potter and I remember I read it all the way through and then turned it over and started reading it again from the beginning and then from that point on I really, really enjoyed the books very much. My first job out of college was working at Barnes Noble, and I have complex feelings about Barnes Noble, but something that I really loved was working the Midnight Magic Parties when I believe it was the fourth book came out, and then I was working at different Barnes Noble when the fifth book came out, and so those were just kind of amazing to see so many people so fascinated by a fictional world and kids coming in at midnight and immediately sitting down to read the new book. I just was so enchanted by that. So that's how I came to know Harry Potter. Tracy, how about you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So despite the fact that I love pop culture and love reading, I have a little bit of a commitment phobia when it comes to fiction, and I'll sometimes have more than others. And so sometime around 2001, I was out of college and I must have been traveling for work and I was in my sort of fiction commitment phobia and I had just heard a story on NPR about, I think, the first two books. Maybe I'm not exactly sure, but I just heard a story on NPR about this book that was taking the world by storm. And so I thought well, a young adult novel like I don't need to be worried about my commitment phobia because it'll be a quick read. And so I bought it in the airport bookstore and just devoured it.

Speaker 3:

I didn't want to do whatever I was doing because I just wanted to spend more time in this world, and since then I have been like the rest of the country. Every book, every movie have consumed hungrily and the sort of weird spin-offs like the play, the screenplay or whatever. The golden child, the cursed child, thank you, and the fantastic beast. I became a fan pretty quickly and have stayed for these 20 years or whatever it is. So that's my kind of initial Harry Potter discovery story. So, julian, I can't wait to hear more from you. How did Harry Potter come into your life and why does it matter so much?

Speaker 4:

I came across Harry Potter when I was at like a school book fair TBT to and I was probably in. I might have been in like third or fourth grade, so I was around the age of like the Harry and my parents are kind of like conservative Christians, and so witchcraft was like not it.

Speaker 4:

So I secretly, like my mom gave me money and I bought the book, knowing that I shouldn't have or that like I wasn't allowed. But I had bought the third book in the series I think Prison of Ascombin had just come out. So then I went back and bought the first one and then probably stayed up all night reading the first book and was like hooked. And so then, by the time so I then like went back and like, using my parents' money surreptitiously, bought all the first three books, read them all through and then around the time that Goblet of Fire came out so that would have been in 2000, I was like died in the wool Harry Potter fan and told my parents, like this is a thing and you just are going to have to get on board, because I need you to get the fourth book for me.

Speaker 4:

And so ever since then, like you all, I had just been kind of ravenous in my consumption of this world and to me it offered such a solace.

Speaker 4:

It felt very much like a security blanket for me growing up and a world that felt distant enough for my own but close enough that, like as a kid, I didn't feel like I needed to like learn too much, like I could kind of just understand that everything's kind of, you know, magical adjacent in the Wizarding World, right, and so that it just was easy to kind of understand. And then I think for me I graduated from high school when the seventh book came out, so like they're transitioning and so was I, and so my kind of timeline with Harry Potter kind of matches my own kind of development and growth as a person and I think that that just really kind of settled itself in my body in ways that I it's hard to shake. And so I think my love for the books comes from both kind of growing and the messages in it, but mostly growing with, with the characters and feeling very kind of connected to them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, how could you help but have a resonance if you're the same age as the kids are growing and yeah yeah, wow, yeah, I definitely I was. I was an adult from the, from the very first page I was already an adult. So it was a looking back for me Interesting.

Speaker 1:

So, considering you, you grew up with this and you know you're at an age where, I mean, that's what we do when we're children we read on critically. When did you start to read it more critically? How did you get to the point where you started to see some of the dynamics that you share in your TikToks?

Speaker 4:

Sure, it was right about the time after I graduated with my PhD. I think I was. I, you know, was mowing the lawn and I was listening to one of the books I can't remember, I think it might have been Deathly Hollows and because my job now is like to think critically about everything, particularly the world that we live in, I was listening and there was a moment where I thought why is it that Voldemort doesn't just make purebloods have more babies? Like why is his entire agenda, this idea of like going and take in, trying to take out muggles and muggle born people that doesn't actually solve the problem. It seems weird and I kept kind of going down this rabbit hole, as I'm like you know me andering with the lawnmower, and I'm like, oh, because it's legitimate, I mean, it's hatred, like this is hate right, like it's not logical, it is bigotry and it doesn't have to make sense. And and then I thought there's something to this idea of thinking a little bit harder about some of the things that we can learn, about kind of our own understandings, that because I think what happens is that we tend to, in our own lives, try to make sense of things that are just nonsensical. And I found myself doing this and thinking I could teach this if I thought hard enough about it, and wouldn't that be fun for me? And so I just kind of so. Then I went back and I started read. I did a complete reread and started really kind of thinking harder.

Speaker 4:

And then when I started working at GW, they were like you can teach whatever you want, and I was like you don't say.

Speaker 4:

And so I kind of took it complete advantage of that and kind of created the class and it's kind of evolved. And so, you know, I started the TikTok with just me in the classroom, kind of recording, you know, conversations that I was having with my students. And partially because I, a lot of people find out about the class and are like I wish I could take it and I thought what can I do to kind of make it more accessible to people? Because you know no one wants to pay GW tuition, so what can I do to make it a little bit more accessible, even if it's just snippets? And then it kind of blew up from there and I think it's helped me kind of become a better teacher because I can see myself and figure things out about how I operate. But yeah, most of it was kind of came out of this random day of trying to just figure out kind of Voldemort's intentions and then just deep diving after that.

Speaker 3:

Wow, that's amazing. So the breadth and the depth of what you go into in your tiktoks for Harry Potter is really it's really remarkable and I encourage listeners to go find Julian on tiktok if this is of any interest. Like really down to like specific characters, like I love the Luna Lovegood that you had to say your take on Arthur Weasley like blew my mind. There's so much that I have learned in binging your tiktoks about the Wizarding World but also about myself and sort of. You've made me question.

Speaker 3:

Like regular listeners will know that I love dramatic irony, like I really like it, and the way I explain to people what I love about dramatic irony is, I say I, whether we're talking about the Wizarding World or not. I say I feel like less of a muggle if, because I'm in on the secret right, like that's the language I use to talk about it. And so when you talk about sort of the way that the Wizarding World thinks about muggles, it's really making me think about myself and my own motivations. So all of this preamble to ask you like what are what's the thing or the dynamic or the character or the storyline or the elements that we're all just accepting uncritically, all of us huge fans. That is maybe causing harm or reinforcing harmful status quo that we're not. We're just not aware of.

Speaker 4:

I honestly think you hit the nail on the head. I think the way that the relationship between magical and non magical people is presented to us, we as the consumer, as the reader, are really kind of socialized by these books to see non magical people as illegitimate. And we see it so much and in some ways it seems it feels very innocuous, because it's oftentimes like oh you know, we're just going to take over this kind of more for the Quidditch World Cup and like sure, we're wiping the memories of these non magical people, but like that's just what we kind of have to do. And oh sure, you know, hermione stopped spending time with her family so that she can spend more time in the magical world and spends and and and says little things like, oh you know, radios and technology are all just replacements for magic, and which kind of makes no sense because the Wizarding World is ages behind in terms of so many other things. It's like, come on, everyone, sending an email would be a lot faster than an owl.

Speaker 4:

But we are socialized like in kind of programmed in our reading to think of all the magical things as better and everything else as being kind of subpar.

Speaker 4:

To the point then where, when things happen to like the Dursleys, we kind of have no sympathy, and that's due in part to the fact that they are like mean people but some of the stuff that befalls them is not great. But we have such a kind of a belief about magic simply being better that we don't necessarily always see the perspective of non magical people, and I think that that, to me, is the thing that stands out the most, because there are so many moments where it's clear that what's happening in the magical world has direct impacts on what's happening in the Muggle world and all of our focus is in the magical one and everything that happens to non magical people just feels kind of like happenstance. And so for me I think we can I mean, there are so many parallels to draw in our own world about kind of you know what things like segregation can do to our brains to make everything feels at such a distance that we don't necessarily have to have any concern or care about it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you're making me think about like in recent, in recent weeks I mean by the time this airs it'll be a little more distant in people's memories, but in recent weeks I'm thinking about the submarine with five super rich people on it versus the migrant disaster in Greece 500 people and the difference in the way it took our imagination, like those five super rich people like took up a lot more real estate in all of the human, like the sort of zeitgeist empathy then 500 people who are looking for, you know, to escape poverty and oppression.

Speaker 2:

And that's.

Speaker 3:

I think that speaks to your point. That we've the Wizarding World kind of reinforces that notion. Like those five super rich people, they're magical and those 500 migrants are muggles.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm also thinking within the universe. Just the fact that when we first meet Hagrid, he gives Dudley a tail, a pig's tail, and like now that I am a parent, I've got a 12 year old and nine year old so right around the age that Dudley would have been like kids can be awful. Dudley has has been raised to be very entitled by his parents. He is a kid and he has something traumatic happen to him and it's played for laughs and it also gets into. One of the things that I've been realizing recently is a lot of fat activists have talked about the fat phobia in Harry Potter is kind of like the Canary in the coal mine for some of the hierarchical thinking within the story that you know, like muggles aren't worth worrying about and things like that.

Speaker 1:

And it's similar, like you know, that happens to Dudley, because he's a pig and and so and he's not worth worrying about because, and until when he, when he becomes a okay, his physical transformation is all that fat turns to muscle because he starts working out and how like that. That is a way for him to earn the ability to be a good person and exchange Christmas cards with Harry once a year.

Speaker 4:

And it's so fascinating because the thing that stands out to me about the moment with the pigtail is that Hagrid actually intended to turn him into an entire pig. And what else is bizarre to me about that moment is that Hagrid is an under qualified wizard, like he has no business doing magic, and the fact that that would have happened and and that we know that the Dursleys had to go to a special doctor and have the tail removed and everyone is just kind of like, well, you should have been nicer. It just feels like we can't. I think we can hold in conversation with one one another the idea that the Dursleys can be not great people, they can be abusive and they can also not be deserving of the kind of abuse that we see the magical world kind of lay on them over and, over and over again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, it gets into the idea of you don't have to be a perfect victim, yeah, like the well. Okay, so the Dursleys, they had it coming because they were terrible, in the same way that you see people saying like well, were they complying with what the police said, like I'm sorry, not resisting arrest should not be a death sentence, right, right, and that is very interesting in that it's placed in this children's book and these, these books that are like they do get progressively darker as you go, and I would argue that the seventh book is not necessarily for children just because of how dark it gets. Yeah, but you know she did intend for the first few to definitely be for kids and reifying this idea that you're either a good person or you're not, and if you're not, then bad things can happen to you and the good people get to decide if you're a bad person.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and that your weight and your body and that you're like so many other physical aspects of yourself play a part in the perception of where you fall on this kind of moral scale, right, because what we see and it's so interesting because we see kind of body type leveraged not only as a way to determine whether one is kind of morally gray, but it's also gendered, because it's that's not what we see from Molly Weasley, right, who is often described as plump, plump, and some of this, I think, is, you know, one of the critiques I get when I raise this point is like, well, it's all from Harry's perspective and I'm like sure, but it was written by a person who wasn't Harry, and so, like we have to, we have to reconcile that reality, and I think, because of the kind of very strong maternal role that Molly plays, her body has to look a very specific way, and we and what is clear in these books time and time again, is that, particularly when it comes to women, jk Rowling is very intentional about kind of a belief about what beauty means, about who you are as a person, and so it's not lost on me, then, that the way that she describes Molly Weasley, in particular, as this kind of very kind of jovial, plump maternal woman is very different than the way that she describes even a professor Slakhorn who is also described as like Rotan, but it's a very different kind of intentionality, I think, in how she describes their bodies.

Speaker 3:

I think your focus on gender in some of your textbooks is really, really fascinating. I'd love to stay with that for a minute. I watched just in the past couple of days. I watched what you had to say about Delores Umbridge and sort of her performance of gender. I'd love to hear you reiterate some of that. That's in that talk.

Speaker 4:

So the thing that fascinates me about Umbridge is that oftentimes, when we think about women in power, there is this kind of prescription of a masculinization you have to perform. If we think about women politicians in my class I always bring up Hillary Clinton and I'm like the sisterhood of the traveling pants suit that there is this kind of the necessity to perform oneself in a way that feels strong, because everything in society tells us that women aren't strong and that they're very flighty and there's all these reasons why they shouldn't be good leaders. And so generally we see, in order to combat that particular stereotype, women kind of overcompensating in masculine performance. But Umbridge does not do that. She goes in the exact opposite direction, in fact, and she kind of I won't say she pitches her voice up because we don't know what it would sound like, but her voice is very high. She leans into the pink. Everything is overly sweet, and so she leans into kind of a feminine performance while also being awful.

Speaker 4:

And I get in a lot of trouble, but I kind of love it. I kind of love the idea of this. Woman is an extremely powerful person in the ministry and some of the way that she's been able to do. That is because she leverages her femininity in very like dangerous ways. But I'm like it's not her fault that the patriarchy made this effective, because she's basically just leveraging what men believe about women and using it as a way to get power, and I find that to be brilliant. I don't think what she does is good, but I think the way that she goes about the kind of navigation of male spaces is ingenious and I think it speaks volumes about what we know so many women across any number of identity groups have done and do to navigate men, which is playing, kind of playing the game. It's like you all made the rules and we're just better at playing it, and now you're upset.

Speaker 1:

That's really interesting to me because I had a realization during the 2016 election. It always bothered me. I was one of the few people I knew who was actually enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton, but it bothered me a lot that she was a former first lady Cause. So the idea that, like you, shouldn't have to marry to get power. And then I was like where does that come from? Where does that discomfort in my head come from?

Speaker 1:

And like the thing is that is historically how women could get power. That was it. Those were the options. So if you weren't born to it like the only child and you know we're blood thirsty and killed all the other options, you could marry it. And so, and I was like, so why am I having a problem with someone using the only tools available at their disposal? And I had this realization that by denigrating that tool, it was a very much like a not like other girls kind of feminism. And I think what you're talking about, about how you love Umbridge I think you're absolutely right and I feel like rolling in a way is exhibiting like by making it clear how awful Umbridge is for using this power, she's doing kind of the not like other girls feminism and saying that that's just not okay.

Speaker 3:

You know it's really interesting, emily, because you recently pointed out, speaking of this, like Umbridge gets punished for it in a very gendered way. Right, like Emily just pointed out to me the fact that Centres in Greek mythology have reputation for being rapists. Right, and so I don't wanna steal your thunder. You were telling me about sort of the trauma of that scene after.

Speaker 1:

So when I first, because I feel like I know Greek mythology pretty well, like I was obsessed with it as a child.

Speaker 1:

But that was not something that I knew off the top of my head. So that was something that I learned after having read the book and that it at first I was like, okay, so I know it pretty well. You know, someone has to be really immersed in Greek mythology to know that that's what their reputation was. So this is JK Rowling winking at the audience but at the same time like the right afterwards when she's in the infirmary, like she's clearly traumatized and the kids are like thinking it's hilarious, making clip-flop noises to see her freak out and oh my goodness, that's awful.

Speaker 4:

Yes, and it's like, you know, honestly, even if we were, if we took it to a place of like perhaps she you know, we don't even put rape into the equation for what happened to her, whatever happened, is outrageously traumatic and there are lots of things that I think should have befallen Dolores Umbridge, but I it is fascinating to me that that was the choice and that we have such a there's such a gray area in how and what we know happened and what we like know happened to her ultimately. It's fascinating to me because the other thing in that particular moment that is always fascinating to me is the is kind of how Hermione kind of does this kind of I'm just a little baby thing to avoid this. And one of the other facets of these books that I think has stood out to me as I've become more critical of them is the relationship that women and girls have with one another. And I think it's fascinating to see kind of Hermione, in that moment, be the one who kind of sets her, sets Umbridge up.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, there's something very odd about it because, you know, hermione's supposed to be like, oh, I'm the strong woman and all of that, but she's willing to sacrifice another woman to this awful fate. And even if it's not specifically rape, it's still an awful fate that no one should have to deal with. And yeah, what you've had to say about Hermione and her place in the central trio I find really, really interesting because, of course, I really related to Hermione. I was like and I've actually described myself that way when, like, I was hired to ghost write something a few years ago and I said, oh, you can trust me, I am, like, I am a Hermione granger, like, that's who I am. I will do all the research, I will do all this. And yet Hermione Granger is not necessarily someone I want to emulate. Based on, like, a deeper, more critical look at who she is, what she does, her role with the central trio and what she's willing to accept from her friends is kind of horrifying once you start looking at it.

Speaker 4:

It has been probably one of the more kind of mind-blowing parts of just doing this semester after semester and really kind of having to unpack Hermione in my head. This past semester I was talking to my students and I was saying you know, if we think about how the trio becomes friends, the reality of the situation is is that Ron was a bully. Hermione went to the bathroom to cry. A troll comes in. Harry and Ron are like Gur, let's go do boy stuff. They lock the troll in the bathroom inadvertently, but lock it in with Hermione. They congratulate themselves and then hear Hermione and they're like oh wait, okay, I guess we have to go save her.

Speaker 4:

They go back in, save her insofar that they use the ones, but they've learned so far that Hermione then coaches them to be able to do effectively and she takes the blame. She was there because she was bullied. Everything else that happened was happenstance and Harry and Ron not paying attention. She took the blame. Then that chapter ends with basically something along the lines of and there are just some things that make you best friends and stopping the troll is one of them. I was like what a horrific way to begin a friendship, taking the blame for after you've been bullied by one of these two.

Speaker 3:

Being bullied and almost killed by.

Speaker 4:

Right Exactly. But also to me it sums up so much of a very specific gender dynamic and it speaks volumes about what we then see from Hermione for the rest of the series, because she works so hard to maintain the friendship with these two boys who are not kind to her, and she goes way above and beyond to maintain that and also to kind of navigate all of the ebbs and flows of these pre-pubescent boys and has no girlfriends Right, and in fact is openly antagonistic to other girls throughout the series. And it just, I think, the more I think about it, the more I'm like okay, so we really do get a sense of JK Rowling's gendered politics through Hermione. She often said that Hermione was her self-insert and the more I look at it the more I'm like, yeah, because I can't imagine even just as a cis man writing a girl character who would put up with what Hermione puts up with for seven years.

Speaker 1:

She reminds me a little bit of the cool girl speech from Gillian Flynn's Gone Girl, in that she's performing throughout the whole thing. Do we ever really know who Hermione is, because she's constantly doing what she feels like she needs to in order to fit in. The couple of things that we see that are entirely hers are like Spiew, the Society for Protection of Elfish Welfare, but that's played for laughs, even though she is very clearly in the right.

Speaker 4:

Yes, although Spiew is tricky, because I think she's very much in the right in that acknowledging how unfair elvish treatment is is important, I think, and I have to always extend grace and I get yelled at about this all the time because she's 14. So, like yes, but I think that the moment that really stands out to me in the entire arc of Spiew, or their two, is the one where she meets the elves and they're kind of giving voice to what they want and she completely just is like well, their brainwashed and don't know anything. And I thought, ok, fine, like again, she's 14. It seems dangerous to not necessarily take into account the voices of the people that you're trying to help under the auspices that you know more than them.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, Savior isn't much, yeah, and then to go, and then, in order of the phoenix, she starts just making hats and hiding them to free the elves. And what stands out to me about that particular moment isn't even the fact that she's just kind of doing this without any sort of consent, it's that Dobby is the one who then has to take on the brunt of cleaning Gryffindor her house by himself, because she, as an ally, has made his life so much more difficult because she wasn't listening. And so now, in her attempt to undo the structural problems, she is reifying it for one very specific individual and making it so much harder for him because she's not listening and she never takes that into account. And I'm like you're kind of perpetuating the idea of the enslavement for this elf, who actually is free by all accounts, and yet your inability to just kind of listen has made it his life so much harder.

Speaker 3:

You know what's really fascinating about this whole arc around the enslavement and the reifying, the oppression and not listening to the people affected, the creatures affected is like there's such a lesson for us, for our world, but rattling plays it for laughs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Right. So I mean, there actually is a very clear lesson that we could learn about, you know, being an ally, about like listening to people, but that's not the lesson. No, that is not the lesson that Rowling is trying to give us, like she plays it completely for laughs and makes her mindy look ridiculous for wanting to help in the first place.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and it's also fascinating because there's a moment where Ron makes a joke about, like, protecting goblins and Hermione says they don't need it because they have their own magic.

Speaker 4:

And so they, which is exactly true for house elves, and we see it all the time, and I just did a video about it yesterday where I was like we see house elves breaking all wizard conventions left and right. They pop in and out of Hogwarts which you're not supposed to be able to do. They do all of these things. They're outrageously powerful, and so when Hermione says, like you know well, goblins don't need any help, it sounds off for me the idea that in her mind, the only people who need help are people who she can infantilize and can kind of say well, you know they have no power, and it's crazy because she watches them do all of these things, but in her mind they're powerless and so they, no matter what kind of power they display, they are always powerless to her. And I think that that is terrifying in terms of someone who claims to be an ally, because it's like you've completely disempowered a powerful group which again perpetuates the very thing that you're trying to dismantle.

Speaker 3:

That you are blowing my mind right now with thinking about the goblins too, because of the accusations of anti-Semitism.

Speaker 4:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Emily and I are Jewish and so thinking about sort of the intersections of anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism and the way that they show up differently, right.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

So if elves, if house elves, are Black and goblins are Jewish, like it also makes total sense that Hermione would be like we don't need to help them.

Speaker 4:

We don't need to Absolutely. They don't know, they have.

Speaker 3:

They have money.

Speaker 4:

They have money, they have power, they can take care of it themselves. And what else is so fascinating about goblins is this idea and it maps on like 100% to the anti-Semitism is that we see so often that there is this kind of this portrayal of goblins that's outrageously greedy. Like we see it with Grip Hook, we see it with. But then when Voldemort returns, all of a sudden the wizards are trying to parlay some sort of alliance and they are seemingly upset. There's a conversation that happens between like Bill and Lupin or someone, and they're like we can't get the goblins on board because they're skeptical. And it's like everything that they have learned in Hogwarts in history of magic, has all been about goblin rebellions. The only perception they have is steeped in a prejudice against goblins until they believe that goblins can actually be of use to them. And then they're confused as to why goblins are like no, we're good, we're fine, no thanks.

Speaker 3:

Which, to your point about the hierarchy, speaks again to like the supremacy, like the wizards, just know that they are better and therefore why? Wouldn't the goblins want to join forces.

Speaker 2:

Because, of course, you want to join forces with wizards.

Speaker 3:

They can't see, they cannot see.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's and the fact that they won't let any of these creatures have wands, because it's all. It's all there. Which is why I think Harry Potter despite how Horrifically dangerous JK Rowling is not despite, but like in light of, I should say, in light of how horrifically dangerous she is I think the books serve as such a great tool to teach us these things, because I think we can, as people often say, well, you know, let's not make you know mountains out of molehills, or you know that was a one time thing, or it was just that person, or it's just that state, or it's just that region, and it's like no, these are structures, this is hierarchical, this is kind of entrenched in the way that we live our lives and it's just invisible. And Harry Potter does such a great job because because I, because it's a kid's book she didn't necessarily try to hide all of these oppressive structures and I think she I don't think she was aware of half of it when she wrote, it Right yeah.

Speaker 4:

And so it just makes it so much easier for me to say, hey, let's actually think about this. And there's such a clear through line of kind of pure blood supremacy and wizard supremacy and magical supremacy that it just to point it out and say, you know, not think about what this means for us. It's so much, it's easier and I think, helps dismantle and make the invisible so much more visible.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. You know what I love about this sort of thing. It bigger in the zeitgeist in terms of what you're doing with your students, but also just in general, like using the wizarding world which so many of us know so well.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And in the model it disarms the defensiveness. So, like I can, I can imagine teaching my students like in another life I teach about oppression. I can imagine teaching my students and even the sort of the white Jewish students who don't want to talk about white supremacy because Jews are also targeted by white nationalism and by sort of the most virulent white supremacy. So talking about the iceberg right where, above the waterline, is the actual Nazis. That's where the death eaters are. They're all above the waterline, but below the waterline are there weasley still there?

Speaker 4:

The weasleys are still there and it's not thinly veiled Like they don't. They don't even yeah, don't even get me started on that, but we don't have to get.

Speaker 3:

But like, what's really, what's really wonderful about your approach here by using Harry Potter to talk about structures and supremacy and the fact that Rowling I agree, I don't think she knew she was doing it, she just was writing what she knows and believes, and so to be able to sort of talk about it in this fictional world first and see it and then say, ok, now let's look at the parallels. It's a way like it's a, it's a pedantic, a pedagogical modality that I imagine is really, really effective.

Speaker 4:

I have found it to be so effective. And I mean, you know, I'm fortunate enough to work at a school like 2W where my students are phenomenal and normally students who take this class are, you know, massive Harry Potter fans to begin with but like the stuff that they come up with. So basically every assignment is just that it's like we have these themes and so it's like you know, structural power, class, gender, the law, the media, things like that, and each book we read the last four books and each book they have to write a paper that is teaching a lesson about something in our own world with Harry Potter as the foundation, and they draw on academic articles and things like that to kind of build out the lesson that they want to teach. But I've had students write about, you know, foundations of coup d'etats, using kind of Voldemort's ascension as a way to think about you know how preexisting biases within a society allow for coups to take place very easily. I had a student write about the dismantling of the carceral state using Sirius Black and kind of talking about him.

Speaker 4:

I mean it works in ways that I could never have even imagined, but I think my goal was to do that very thing, was to kind of disarm my students and make them feel much more comfortable talking about identity, because I think that that's the most kind of insidious part of these structures is that we've all been taught we don't talk about class, we don't talk about race, we don't talk about religion at a table because we have to be civil, and if we bring any of those things up, then all of a sudden we'd like and so, which then perpetuates the silence and the invisibility of the structures that allow for so many of us to be continually oppressed.

Speaker 4:

And so if there are ways then that we can have these conversations where no one feels personally attacked yet because at some point it's going to happen, but if we can have that introduction be something as seemingly innocuous as a Harry Potter, then not only do you now have language to use when you get to the part that's uncomfortable, but you have a very clear understanding of the argument that you're making, and that, to me, is like what it's all about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, that's really nice, All right. Well, we're coming to the end of our time and we've spent a lot of time now kind of like dismantling and like talking about all the things that are wrong. I would love to like just close on, like something, some aspect of the story or a character or something, somebody that's actually like helpful and useful and progressive. I assume there's at least one.

Speaker 4:

Ooh, this has always been the hardest part, because, like so when I was in graduate school, they always make a joke that grad students are the most critical but not good at like complimenting anything, and I feel that way with this.

Speaker 3:

So how about Luna?

Speaker 4:

I think, when you talk about Luna, I love Luna because I think Luna is what, if I could go back and not have her framed the way that she was in the books, like that's who I would want to be.

Speaker 4:

She's so unabashedly herself and so hyper aware of the world around her and she's so like, gracious in her truth. Telling it may make you feel uncomfortable, because the truth can, but the way that she helps Harry navigate kind of his grief in ways that he himself is completely unequipped emotionally to navigate, and the way that she kind of just falls in line with the group but never sacrifices herself right, we see Hermione changing herself to be liked and we see Luna saying take what you got or don't take it at all. And I think that that is such a refreshing thing for young people, for everyone, but particularly young people who read these books and who are feeling so kind of pulled in directions of wanting to be accepted and liked. I think Luna serves as such a kind of a lighthouse to guide people towards true authenticity. And I do and I love her for that. I love Neville.

Speaker 1:

Neville is a wonderful story of his character arc and, oh my gosh.

Speaker 4:

And just because the thing about so many of the characters in these books is that when you meet them they grow, but they're still fundamentally the same in a lot of ways. But Neville really has to find himself and navigate so much loss and the constant reminder of his parents and his grandmother, who's not proud of him, and his family who wants him to be great but he's not and he's a pure blood. So he's supposed to be all these things and he has to find all of that by himself, without much support, and he does. And there's such a beauty to that idea of like not having all the answers when you show up at 11 years old and having to really discover oneself, and it takes a lot of time and energy and disappointments and he navigates all of that and I find that to be just so beautiful.

Speaker 1:

The two moments that always stick with me with Neville is when they're in St Mungo's and I can't remember if his mother or his father gives him the little rubber wrapper and he very carefully puts it in his pocket. It's very little moments and it's like Harry notices it and doesn't say anything. But to me that, just like the level of grief and loss represented by that tiny little moment, and then that and pulling the sword from the sorting hat, are like the two moments that to me, like some up who Neville is you know, he has this immense loss and he is there and able to do what needs to be done at the time that it needs to be done, and that that's just like I cry, thinking about Neville, because he's such a great character.

Speaker 4:

He humanizes bravery in a way that feels so approachable. And I think what Harry? You know, harry's a chosen one, but he just has such a kind of inherent gift, if you will, to like just be brave, and it's just like in him and it just kind of jumps out and that feels very unrealistic for me. Yeah, likewise, yeah. And so to have a person like Neville, who has to fight to be brave and has to work hard because it's not something that is inherent to him, that's amazing because it's still bravery, it's just it looks different and I think there's such a like an amazing kind of sense of what bravery can be and how he can be both a human and flawed and scared and anxious and all these things and still be a great person.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I love that as a place to end. So we have been joined today by Dr Julia Womble. Thank you so much for being with us. It was amazing to speak with you. I encourage listeners to go find the TikToks.

Speaker 4:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

Fantastic.

Speaker 4:

Atcroftwprfw. Thank you so much, Tracy and Emily.

Speaker 3:

We will also put it in the show notes, folks. So next time, M, what are you going to?

Speaker 1:

be diving into. I am going to be telling you my deep thoughts about Disney's Beauty and the Beast. The original animated version, Woo.

Speaker 2:

Can't wait, can't wait. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3:

Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetekcom.

Speaker 2:

Find full music credits in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

Deep Thoughts is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. You can help keep us overthinking.

Speaker 2:

Support us through our Patreon with a link in the show notes. Leave a positive review so others can find us and share the show with your people. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?