Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast

Deep Thoughts about the Princess Bride

• Tracie Guy-Decker & Emily Guy Birken • Episode 3

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The Princess Bride does not mean what you think it means? INCONCEIVABLE!

In today’s episode, Emily has some deep thoughts about the most quotable fairy tale ever written: The Princess Bride. Emily shares her theory that the film is both neurodivergent-friendly and a masterclass in brilliant storytelling–even though it miserably fails the Bechdel Test. Meanwhile, Tracie and Emily discuss the ways the film does Buttercup dirty and why she would have brained the R.O.U.S. under a different director.

Join us! We’ll have fun storming the castle and learning about the deeper meaning behind this eminently rewatchable film.

(Note: we had some issues with audio, especially Tracie's, in this episode. It's still worth the listen!)

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, and secure early access to Deep Thoughts (and other perks!) by visiting us on Patreon. 

Emily Guy Birken:

Hey, there, I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the Princess Bride with my sister, tracy Guydecker, and with you. Let's dive in.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Hey, it's me, Tracie, so there was something not quite right about my mic when we recorded this episode, but it's still worth listening to. My sister does most of the talking and she's really smart. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. Come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

Emily Guy Birken:

So, Trace, tell me what you know about the Princess Bride and how you know it.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Oh man, I have seen the Princess Bride many times. I mean in part because you were obsessed with it when we were kids. It is such a quotable movie. I feel like there are a lot of moments in my life where us Princess Bride quote comes up in different scenarios. We even goodbye to someone, have fun storming the castle or what are the other ones. Sometimes, if my spouse and I are joking with each other, pretend angry, I'll say I'm not a witch, I'm your wife and, of course, hello, my name is Ine Gormitoya. You killed my father prepared to die.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, I mean, that movie is like the fodder for childhood memories and experiences and stuff. Yeah, and then like a few things that I learned about it. So Mandy Patinkin plays Inigo is actually the first cousin of a former boss of mine, really, yeah. And so I learned a lot about Mandy's family because my boss was his first cousin, like they share grandparents. Anyway, I also learned later because Mandy Patinkin now has sort of an interesting social media presence and so I've learned about like he imagined the six-fingered man was cancer, when he'd like to get the emotion in that scene, the six-finger man as the person, the entity that killed his dad. So they're like little things like that. That. I know about the Princess Bride, but, to be honest, I have never taken the time to like dissect this for like what societal meanings it might have. So tell me, why are we talking about this?

Emily Guy Birken:

Well, you are absolutely correct. I was obsessed with it. I think I watched it every Saturday and Sunday for years. I know you wore out the VHS tape. I literally wore out the VHS tape. Yes, and the VHS tape actually was our aunt, for either my birthday or as a like a holiday present, had taped it for me off of HBO. Yeah, so I my. My ability to you know, recite the entire film from beginning to end starts with the HBO promo. That's at the very beginning.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

It's not with the little like, yeah, the next style video game, that's what it's like for me.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, something that I find interesting about my love for this movie is that I know I didn't really get it entirely as a kid, so you know I watched it so many times. I wore out the tape, I ended up buying the DVD. I watched it again and again, also in in high school, probably a few times in college, and then there was a gap and I saw it again when I was teaching high school English, because I actually I it's something you can buy a curricula for, and so I was like, yes, I do want to do that. And so I taught it to my students and I realized there was a lot, there was this huge layer of things that had kind of gone over my head as a kid, and it's not that I didn't know it was funny. It's not that I didn't know that it was like more than just a straight story. It's that that didn't really matter when I was watching it, and I actually think that is not unusual and part of why it is so beloved and so enduring, and that's actually that's part of what I really want to focus on today.

Emily Guy Birken:

What it does in terms of storytelling, that is, I think, unique. I can't think of anything else that does it this way and how that actually, I think, is also connected to neurodivergence in a very interesting way. So that's, that's where I'm coming from with this, although I also am going to have a little sidetrack into the lack of female representation. The way that Buttercup is is characterized, and it's a abysmal school and a score on the back del test. So those are the things I'd like to talk about today.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Okay, let's do it, let's do it. I'm particularly, I'm particularly eager to hear about the neurodivergence.

Emily Guy Birken:

So I went back, so I rewatched the film last night, which is a delight. There are some things from your childhood you can't go home again, and this is not one of them. Now there are aspects of, as I said, buttercup that irritated me as a child and continue to irritate me as an adult, but overall this movie holds up and I feel like we'll continue to hold up forever. And I went and read some contemporaneous reviews at the time. One of them was Roger Ebert, for whom I have a great deal of affection, who said the way that he put it was that children will be wrapped in attention because of like the, the story, the straight story, whereas the adults will get the sly winks. And I think he got it in one.

Emily Guy Birken:

This story is on many, many levels, so it is both a an homage to kind of fairy tales, but also a parody of fairy tales. But unlike a lot of parodies, it has a deep respect for the story itself. And so you know you have Buttercup and that is ridiculous, but they do not make it ridiculous. You know it is entirely possible to read that straight and not feel tucked down to. Similarly, the, you know the ROUS is the rodents of your new size and other aspects of the story are very, very silly.

Emily Guy Birken:

And and I was trying to think of like, how, like how the actors play it too, because that's the other thing. They threaded this needle when, on the one hand, all of the actors are aware of the fact that they're in a parody, but they also play it straight, but they also don't. So, like Wallace, sean, who played Vasini Um, is chewing the scenery left, right, upside down and backwards, but it and it works. And then you have Inigo, who has some of the best, funniest lines. You know, you keep saying that word. I do not think it means which I think it means, but it is a truly Emotional scene when he is fighting count Ruegan. So that's one of those things where, like, I think we can thank Rob Reiner's direction, because he managed to bring out both the humor and the pathos without sacrificing either, and that that I just think is is very, very rare. So when a child is watching us and I was a very literal child- no, you're not a literal adult at all.

Emily Guy Birken:

So, so some of the things that I want to make clear that I believed because of the princess bride. They talk about true love and you can hear the capital T in the capital L when they talk about it multiple times and I believed that that that was a thing Like when. Like this is true love. Do you think it happens every day? You truly loved each other so you could have been truly happy. Not one couple in a century has that chance. You know death cannot stop true love. All it can do is delay it for a while. I thought that was a real thing that you could know, that you had. That truly would insulate you From the, the difficulties of the world. Now, this I put along the same lines, as I think I told you recently that when I was a child, I thought a poetic license was something you could actually apply for, like carrying your wallet.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

I'm allowed, I am allowed to mix that metaphor because I have a witness.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, so very similar to that because of my literalism, and so that's where I get in terms of my sense of neurodivergence, how this is a very neurodivergence friendly movie, and here's why. So one of the things that I have, I was recently, as in within the last year and a half, got a diagnosis of ADHD. It was Something that I found out is pretty typical among particularly middle-aged women is their child will get diagnosed and they'll be looking at the symptoms, going like wait, that's not normal, doesn't everybody do that, which is what happened with me. The symptom that had me go like oh yeah, I can't explain that any other way was rewatching the same movie over and over again, or rereading the same book over and over again. I was just like that's that's me, that's that's who I am, that's who I've always been, and I can recall seeing a news story about a boy with autism who was basically nonverbal, except that he loved the movie, the Lion King, and he would Repeat the words, the, the in that, and that was a way that his father was able to connect with him, and Everyone who I know who loves this movie did what I did they watched it over and over again till they wore out the tape.

Emily Guy Birken:

And so the reason why I think this is a very neurodivergence friendly movie Is it can be taken on many, many levels. So you can read it completely straight in the way that many people who are neurodivergent do, who struggle with subtext, who struggle with Social cues, who struggle with certain types of humor and sarcasm, because they take everything literally. So you've got that layer. But the movie, the writer, william Goldman, the, the actors, rob Reiner as the, the Director none of them make you feel bad for taking it literally. They make it very clear that you are welcome to just watch this as an adventure and as a romance and just enjoy yourself and enjoy the straight story. So there is no sense of talking down to the audience who is not able to see the layers. Then the fact that it is so quotable you know it makes it another thing. That is, that allows for you know what someone who is neurodivergent, who likes to revisit and revisit and revisits, it's very friendly that way. Then the fact that there are so many layers means that it it rewards repeat viewings.

Emily Guy Birken:

So I as a kid Could remember, I can remember the first time I realized like sleep well and dream of large women was a joke Because, again, I took that literally and there was a point where I was just like, oh, oh, I get why I said that and that, that, like you know, I had a little dopamine rush like, oh, I get it now. And would not have been able to do that with a movie that I only watched once or twice. I had to watch it over and over and over again to really understand that, to get that. And so, similarly, there is a scene where, when Wesley is taken to the pit of despair, the albino who was played by Mel Smith, who then goes on to be in brain donors, which is the Updating of a Marx Brothers movie yeah, I hope I'll get a chance to talk about that. Actually I hope so too. Yeah, I, much of my knowledge of actors is like six degrees of. So when the albino is is, wesley wakes up, he finds the albino is is, like you know, putting disinfectant on his wounds and he's like so where am I? And the albino? And then Don't even think about trying to escape and he's got this normal voice.

Emily Guy Birken:

That's another one where it took me multiple viewings to recognize the joke in there and the, the gentleness with which the movie presents these things Never made me feel stupid for not getting it before. I never at any point felt like, oh my god, were people laughing at me? That I wasn't laughing at that. It was entirely a type of discovery For me to be able to recognize these jokes, this winking at the audience, the subtext and all of those things, at my own pace and without in any way feeling shame for not getting it, and that, I think, has a lot to do with why it is so beloved. I mean, it's not just a funny movie. It's not just a, you know, swashbuckling romance. It's not just a lovely fairy tale. It's not just a story of fathers and sons or grandfathers and grandsons. It's also something it's a very gentle introduction to how stories are told that allows you and rewards you for examining deeper. That's nice. You know there's something as you're saying that.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

one of the things I'm thinking about is Visini and like, because he's sort of like this hyper rational but, he's so ridiculous and so even within the universe of the story, like to your point, like the sort of hyper rational person who might laugh at you for not getting the subtext, is laughed at.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

He's absolutely ridiculous in this, in the universe of this movie, you know so like I'm even thinking about, like, like some of the ways that Inigo and um um Fezic, fezic thank you, the way that they interact and their friendship, like they rhyme together, which this movie hates. You know. Set that rhyming now, I mean it, does anybody want a peanut? It's so silly, but there's clear camaraderie and affection within the silliness with the hyper rational guy hates and we as the audience kind of hate him for hating it. And so to your point about it being kind of open and welcoming and like making space for the deeper, like no, of course you're not going to be made fun of. Like our favorite thing is to rhyme with one another.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, yes, and that's a that gets to another aspect of it that Inigo and Fezic are not in any way shamed for the, the things that they lack.

Emily Guy Birken:

So you know, except by the Zini, so, Fezic is not an intellectual giant, but that does not matter to Inigo. They are best friends anyway and um, and Inigo loves to help him. You know like prompt him to have him rhyme because it makes Fezic so happy and Inigo is, you know he talks about. He has no gift for strategy and he's like okay, well, we'll figure it out. Like I am persistent, so I know how to be persistent, I'll find them in a black. The men in black will be my strategist and Fezic's like all right, I've got $65, you can have it, we'll do whatever we need to do with it. That, that is another aspect of it. There's, there is no sense of shaming.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Even that, even for mistakes not just what's lacked but mistakes right Like when when Fezic finds Inigo drunk and Inigo says we said we go back to things go wrong, we go back to the beginning. This is the beginning. But this is where I was when, when Visini found me and there's no like Fezic doesn't judge him, he just makes none of them and what I mean kind of a harsh way with the hot water and the cold water, but it works, it is effective, and not with any with, not with any shame or judgment.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, yeah, he does not in any way make him feel bad for things having gone wrong and and and that is just that's lovely. Similarly, once Wesley kind of joins their trio, they work together very, very well. Just, you know that there's a lovely scene where you know, he immediately wakes up. You know, I beat you each a part. Yeah, like, how did you recognize him that quickly? There's no groggyness. You went where am I? In the pit of despair, anyway. But you know he's like there's I don't know how we'll do this and Fezic is just like, but you're wiggling your finger. That's fantastic. So there is something.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

So, you're on his steel and you think a little finger wiggling.

Emily Guy Birken:

So but that that is that kind of openness is is very lovely. Now I do want to say, and this is something that bothered me, even as a child, buttercup does not get the same treatment. So, and some of this comes from William Golden's novel in the novel she's not very bright, they. They did a little bit in the in the movie and Robin Wright is fantastic when you know she has. She has some, some spunk.

Emily Guy Birken:

But the you know the fact that she jumps in the in the water although I believe that's in the novel as well she jumps in the water to try to get away, like that is very brave she. When she says do you promise not to hurt him? I'll go with you. She is exercising the only kind of power that she has ever had. And they're in the fire swamp and he's explaining to her about you know how? He's Dred Pirate Roberts and now he's going to retire because and pass the name on to someone else and he's like is everything clear to you? They, this is a choice, this is a directorial choice. They have her look confused before she falls into the, the lightning sand, and what he's explained is not difficult to understand and I remember being like annoyed by that as a kid, because I'm like how is she not going to understand that you know what's to be confused about? And then that is immediately followed by her being completely useless in the ROUS attack, which is another directorial choice. That was not necessary.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Right.

Emily Guy Birken:

They try to whack him. Yeah, they have her take the branch and like she's like pushing it away with it instead of like whacking it over the head would not have changed the scene or the story at all. So though you know, it's interesting.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

What is interesting to your point about Buttercup is that I think that, no, I'm certain that hers is the only interior that we see, with the dream that she has, with the old lady Bow down to her bow, to the Queen of Filth, the Queen of Queen of Pute Treasants. Yeah, that that's the only interior thought, you know, like mindscape, that we see of any of these characters which is sort of interesting.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

I mean I'm. I actually don't know what to do with that, given what else you're pointing out. I mean, although having that dream is what sends her to Humperdink to say she doesn't want to. If he makes or marry him, she will kill herself, and he does the whole the four fastest ships thing. But um, I yeah, I don't know what I'm, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I do think it's worth noting. Yeah, in the whole movie we get an interior scene from one character and it's the one who is, to your point, the least fleshed out.

Emily Guy Birken:

She really is just a prize for in many ways, and that's like. I am again somewhat conflicted about Buttercup as a character, because when she says the and the reason I say you're a coward is because it's slimy as we cling ever to walk the earth like, my heart sings. I'm like, yes, give it to him. It's a. It reminds me of the story of Esther from where, if you know, listeners aren't familiar, the story of the poem holiday. Esther was Jewish, but she married the king, yeah, who was the king of Persia, who was not Jewish. And so, and long story short, that all the Jews were were supposed to die, and so she wouldn't go to him directly and say hey, I'm your beloved queen, I'm one of the people who's going to die. Can you fix it? She had to like work around it because she was so afraid of, of, of angering the king. Now, obviously, like this is, you know, a silly movie, but you know that Buttercup says to his face to the most powerful man in the country where they live you are a slimy, weakling and you cannot hurt me. Is like it's amazing. But we don't get to spend any time on that and we don't get to see that for the, the, the bravery that it is In part because Humperdink is a ridiculous character. I mean, his name is Humperdink, but but also like, like the Cini he is, he is puffed up to be ridiculous in a way, and you know, as is Count Ruegan, but Count Ruegan is ridiculous but also scary, I mean he is lethal. So so it's an interesting scenario.

Emily Guy Birken:

As I mentioned, this movie does not pass the Bechdel test, which, as a reminder, it's the test from Alison Bechdel, which is does it have two female characters? Do they both have a name? Do they talk to each other about something other than men? So there are two female characters that are named Buttercup and Valerie, who is the Miracle Max's wife. They do not speak to each other. Buttercup has, maybe she's in the room when the queen says it was a very strange wedding, but she doesn't actually talk to her. And she also speaks to the, the booing woman, but that's about Wesley, and the booing woman doesn't have a name. Yes, and the booing woman doesn't have a name.

Emily Guy Birken:

So, yeah, and neither does the mother, although I mean neither does Fred Savage or Peter Falk in the in the frame story. If this were to be made today and I don't think it like people have talked about, we should remake it like no, do not remake this. But if this were to be made with different sensibility towards sexual politics, then what William Goldman and Rob Reiner had in 1987 and what William Goldman had in 1973 when he originally wrote the book, I believe that, like the sceny, inigo and Pheasick might be a more diverse cast.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, yeah, I imagine Inigo as like a, like a really live woman. I think that would be amazing.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah you know so. And then you know, there's the fact. But this, some of this has to, goes back again to the fact that it's fairy tale, but that Wesley and Buttercup are both, you know, blonde, blue eyed.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, yeah yeah Also, like why do they love one another? Like I remember watching that as watching it as an adult, and being like how is that true love? I mean she makes him do stuff for her and that's I mean it's not just high because it's not too lust yeah, true love. I don't know.

Emily Guy Birken:

That's one of those things where I think that is both part of the homage to the original, of like to fairy tales, because fairy tales don't require any kind of realism when it comes to love, and then I think it's also it shows the genius of William Goldman's writing in that. Okay, yeah, yeah, let's get through that. Murdered by pirates. On to the story. Right right.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Right With the Colombo and Kevin. That's not their names.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, but that's. You know, some of that has to do any, but I can't remember if you've read the book or not.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, I at least read some of it, you know where he actually found it and it was really boring, and so it's like good parts first.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, yes, so some of that's like, you know, the falling in love part and how like quick it is, and the fact that you know when he said I as you wish, what he really meant was I love you because a send up of, of the, that aspect of fairy tales.

Emily Guy Birken:

But it was also and this is why I consider Goldman a genius it also let him off the hook so like he could like lean into the send up and the movie plays a lot more straight than the book does, in part because they just don't have the time for the, for you know there's quite a bit more that happens early on in the book, but it's a, it's a similar thing. It's like, all right, just take it as a given. They're in love. I mean, look at them, how could they not be? And then all right onto, you know, murder by pirates and good stuff, and so and that's another aspect of this that, as someone who wants to consider myself a storyteller, who like does do creative writing, I feel like this is a really interesting thing to be part of my like literary DNA. You know, because it has it taught me, you can skip to the stuff you know.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

You know how to write you know, it's really interesting to and thinking about it that way as sort of the storytelling DNA, because I find that sort of the frame and where the frame starts to intersect, I find those moments really really fascinating. I think it's in part because of this movie, like in the reaching eels, and then, like Peter Fox, she doesn't get killed or whatever it is. He says like you will look and worried and and like, and then he goes in and he wants to get for sorry, fred. So Fred Savage is like. You read that part already.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Like you know. So like there's like a little like you're in the wrong spot, like that kind of interruption of the story with the frame. I find really really fun and satisfying, and I think part because of this movie.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, it's that creation of a frame, narrative it's, it's another one where? So I spend quite a bit of time thinking about story construction, in a way that I think you know someone who was an English major, someone who doesn't, you know, didn't teach English, someone who doesn't try to write, him or herself doesn't necessarily do. And it's interesting because, like if you rewatch the same film over and over and over again, you can start to see where the strings are being pulled in a way that you don't notice. And it is really seamless in a lot of ways with this film, which, again, is part of what, what makes it so great, but those interruptions they allow for things that would be difficult to handle without them. So by having now I want to call in Kevin, by having Fred Savage interrupt when, you know, the day of the writing arrived and she now met her, met her subjects as her queen, and Kevin interrupts and is just like wait, no, that's not right, that's wrong.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, yeah, that's gives you stakes that the story itself doesn't necessarily have. So you know you are raising the stakes because you're breaking this little boy's heart, in addition to the stakes of the fairy tale. That's amazing. It is amazing.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

That's a really, really smart point. Yeah, I think more than that. It's not just that you're breaking that little boy's heart, but it's part of the dramatic irony that I love because we, the viewers, are with Fred Savage. Right.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

And we're like, oh right, yeah, he had you know. So, like there's this, there's this like a projection too. That maybe it just says viewers, if just the just the sort of baseline story, the story inside the frame, we might be like, oh, I guess I. Okay, well, let's see where this goes. And he says it, then we also are justified in being like yeah, that's not the way the story goes, you know, it's like it kind of validates what might have, what we might have tamped down in just watching the story.

Emily Guy Birken:

Exactly yes, so Goldman and Reiner have created this audience proxy.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

In Fred Savage.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, in Fred Savage and we also we've created. I mean, it's not unusual to have like a narrator, but we have a narrator with a specific kind of agenda in with Peter Faulk. So when there's the point where Fred Savage goes like, well, who gets pounded ink, who kills him at the end, is it In-N-Go-Who? And Peter Faulk goes, nobody does, he lives and he's like why did you read me this? For that's not fair. And he's like well, life's not fair.

Emily Guy Birken:

That was a very important through line in the book which William Goldman actually wrote, because his daughters requested a bedtime story and one asked for a princess, one asked for a bride, and so he put them together. He goes through multiple times and has S Morgenstern at the end and say like you know, if there's anything I want you to know, it's life's not fair and true love is the greatest thing in the world, except for, maybe, cough drops. I don't think I read the whole book because I would remember that. So it's interesting that that is the. That's the message that Peter Faulk wants to give. Is that life's not fair and that's the. That's a message of this story. Even though it is, this story gives like, as I was saying, it is so open to people, wherever they are.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

I'm not sure that the movie does give that message. You know, I mean, Humbert Ink lives and that's not fair. Yeah, sure, but he's humiliated. And there's, I mean there's that moment where they, when they reconnect, and Pheasant has the four white. You know, there they were four white horses, four white horses.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

And I thought there are four of us, if we have a final lady. Hello, hello, lady. It's like. I mean, they like manifest it. It's like, yeah, magic, and they ride off into the sunset. And I recall in the book they ride off into the sunset but then one of the horses loses the shoe and Wesley relapses. And then all these terrible things happen, but we don't see that in the movie. Yeah, yeah. We just ride off and then we get Peter Faulk given us a wink as you went, so I think they're the movie.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

The movie version actually is a little more magical than More gentle.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah. And having watched this after losing our dad, I think I might be seeing that a little bit more, just in that scene where, where Inigo was like you know, offer me anything I want. I want my father back you, son of a bitch, yeah and he kills him and he kills him, but that doesn't make it fair and that doesn't make it better.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

No, and I mean I think in the character of Inigo there's something very specific, a specific message there. I mean, even when he says I've been in the revenge business so long, I don't know what else there is to do Like the fact that he was completely created. His identity on his head of this other person has in some ways erased his father as well. Yes, so I just in the character of Inigo specifically. We do get some of that, but even that there's, like this consolation prize. Have you ever considered piracy? I think you'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts. You know so, like there's, there's still, like there's still an openness and a gentleness, and like we'll, we'll figure it out. Mm, hmm.

Emily Guy Birken:

I suppose that's true, you are right. You're right there. I have, and this is me like really overthinking things at the beginning when Peter Falk says, like it's a book. When I was a kid, television was called Books and this is a special book my father used to me when I used to read it to me when I was a child, and I used to read it to your father, and today I'm going to read it to you. Where's Fred Savage's father?

Emily Guy Birken:

I have wondered that multiple times and you know again, some of this has to do with the fact that you know, since 2013, I have not had a father, and so and I feel that loss acutely in terms of my own sons not having a grandfather figure to read to them when they're sick, and so so I mean there, there is an undercurrent of unfairness and reality, even within the gentleness of this film. Yeah, but it's well, it is gentle, it is magical, it does, it is reassuring, even in all of that, that you know, even if someone is mostly dead all day, they can be brought back, and that true love really and truly does, does, prevail, even over death.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, maybe that's part of, like the fact of the frame and the escape. Maybe that's, you know, part of the message is, you know, because I think there is certainly a sense of loss that each of these characters carries. The good guys, anyway, you know, and they're they, wesley and Buttercup do reclaim what they lost, sort of, but the others don't, and can't they find other things, because that's how, you know, death works, and so you know, there's only one side of the frame of the story where you can be mostly dead all day.

Emily Guy Birken:

There's only one thing you can do Go throw his pockets.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Look for a change. Yeah, I'm, it's an interesting like, it's an interesting lens and I think that's what I'm going to get through, because Buttercup actually, like coming back to her, there's not a whole lot there. She's pretty unique dimensional, but even within the single dimension she's lonely, grieving, you know, like nothing brings her joy except for the daily, her daily ride.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

She's doing this. I think Esther's a great comparison. She doesn't have much of a choice. You know, it's not like a peasant girl can say no to the prince, so she makes the best of it. I mean, I think with a different lens, this actually could be quite a dark story. Yes, yes, but you know, the woman who calls her the queen of putrescence is like that's not just a dream and also it's completely out of line, because what choice did she have? Yes.

Emily Guy Birken:

Well, and that's the scene when she goes. Do you promise not to hurt him? That's one of the reasons why I want to like the movie. Takes that at, like immediately cuts her down, yeah.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

And when she says she's an honor Flying does not become us.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, and she says I lost you once and I like it nearly killed me. I can't do it again. If, when I could save you. And like she is exercising the only power she has, which is very little. But you know that that's like it is admirable. It is admirable that she's doing that and like it. You know there is no way that they could win against all of those knights who had, like long bows you know, like they are crossbows, Right, right, and it was her action that took them from dying.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, both of them.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, and so and kept her from seeing him dying in front of her too, which, honestly, like in another director's hands, it could just be like she just couldn't see it happen, and maybe this would be easier, you know, knowing that it's unlikely that till he'll keep his word. But also, you know, based on you know the way that the prince talks, you know he talks as if my word is my bond. So I think that we need to kind of give Buttercup a second look.

Emily Guy Birken:

There were a few years ago I've rewatched the shining, the 1980 Stephen King movie that Stephen King hates, and one of the things he said about it was that he hated the way shelly de vol played Wendy Torrance, saying it was an is agonistic portrayal. And the thing is, if you watch that film, shelly de vol, at every stage, is doing the best she can with what she has and she is always prioritizing the well being of her child and her husband in that order. And so I actually I was kind of thinking of her as like undercover nasty woman, because she looks like and I can see why King thought of her as like a misogynistic portrayal and she does not strike you as a very bright person in that movie. But that doesn't mean she's not strong, and that doesn't mean she's not capable, and that doesn't mean she's anything other than a heroine.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

You see, I'm just starting to think of Wyn's.

Emily Guy Birken:

In the end she does. She gets Danny out of there and she gets herself out of there, and I mean, considering what she was up against, that's pretty amazing. She was terrified. But who wouldn't be? I feel like Buttercup has a similar. There's a similar look that we can give to Buttercup and the Princess Bride where, like even with the way that the story is directed, even with the sexual politics of 1973, and how she was originally written, and in 1987, and how she was directed, robin Wright was directed to play her, there is still this core of strength within this unit dimensional character that we can admire, even while we wish like seriously, rob, couldn't you have her beat the ROUS over the head? I mean like we.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, cause actually in the interactions with Humperdink she shows quite a bit of strength when she says all, but you're four fastest. Right like she holds him to what he said in ways that actually are quite brave. I think it's a lot easier to just let that go, but she doesn't. So I think you're right. I do, I think you're right.

Emily Guy Birken:

And so, and that's something one of the things that, as I was kind of reading reviews and stuff like that, I read two things that were kind of negative towards Princess Bride. Both were from women, both were saying that they kind of cringe at the portrayal of Buttercup because it is kind of misogynistic. And neither of them were wrong. I think that they're correct, but I think there's a way to kind of forgive the movie for it and there's a way to read Buttercup as a strong woman. And if gosh, when was it? It was in, I think, 2018, when Wonder Woman came out.

Emily Guy Birken:

Someone had a meme going about how Gen X women grew up to see their childhood princesses grow up to be generals, because Carrie Fisher playing Princess Leia and then becoming General Organa, and then Robin Wright being Princess Buttercup and being a general one of the Amazon generals in Wonder Woman, and it's not like Princess Buttercup is not the Amazon general, like this is an actress, but I do like looking at the fuller context of even just an actor's choices that she does go from like a pretty object who does have some moments of strength to taking these roles where she plays the president of the United States, where she is an Amazon warrior, where she is, all of these interesting, fascinating things, and that is something that I appreciate Robin Wright for I will say yeah, I think that's right.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

I think that also, though even within just the boundaries of the Princess Bride, the fact is, goldman Reiner, they were misogynistic, they were sexist, there were sort of unhealthy gender norms, and that's the society that they were in.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

It's not like they invented those negative things, right, so they were reflecting back the society and so within that, like us noticing the moments of the small moments of power that are offered when they are seized, when those opportunities are seized, small as they may be, that is worth celebrating. I think that's also worth noting. Like I think you're right, we can look at the big context, and that is useful. Robin Wright is not Princess Buttercup, and also they're inextricably linked, and even within just the boundaries of this movie that you brought to have deep thoughts about, that is the nature of being female in the world for most of human existence, and so recognizing that the opportunities are small, but that doesn't mean they're not there, nor that we can't take them, I think that is really worth noticing and celebrating so that when the bigger opportunities come, we recognize them and know what to do.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, I will say, having hearing you say that I'm thinking about the only other named woman in the movie, valerie Miracle, max's wife.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

She takes power in a similar way, totally does I mean, and in the ways that she's like, that sort of nagging? That is the kind of power that women were given. We're allowed to employ that.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

We're allowed to take yeah, and so it's done to comedic effect, but it works so yeah yeah, all right, so let me see if I can synthesize quickly and then I have some deep thoughts about stupid shit. Okay, so I'm hearing there's something really lovely about the many layers of this movie that don't just invite or allow, but actually reward multiple viewings without judgment, without shame, which is really, in your experience, neurodivergent, friendly. In terms of story structure, the frame structure of Fred Savage and Grandpa Colombo was really useful to raise the stakes and, as an audience proxy which I personally had known the audience proxy because I'm so attuned to dramatic irony, but the raising the stakes, that's really really interesting and I love that insight from you.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

And the gender norms are yucky but, also real, and even within those yucky norms. We see real bravery on the part of Princess Buttercup and Valerie Miracle Max, with the wife. He's not a witch, she's his wife. He's not a witch, she might be a witch, but she is his wife. Did I miss anything In terms of, like big takeaways you wanna make sure that we leave with our?

Emily Guy Birken:

listeners here. Just the fact that both humor and pathos lie within this film in a way that is amazing and is because I feel like pretty much all of the actors, with possible exception of Wallace Sean, who just was scenery chewing there but all of the actors were able to marry those two types of emoting in a way that is just unique. I cannot think of another film that does that, where you feel genuine concern. Pathos, like pride for the scene between Inigo and Count Rugen, while also having so many winks to the audience and so much humor and so much slainess. It's sweet and sly at the same time and you'd think you can't do that.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

But they do. It's an absurdism which is neither ridiculous like clowning, nor is it like Kafka or sort of like theater of the absurd, where you're just like what the heck is happening yeah.

Emily Guy Birken:

Exactly, exactly yeah, so All right.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Yeah, I'm gonna call it a wrap. Those were your thoughts about the script.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yeah, that's some deep thoughts about stupid shit, although I suspect some of our listeners will be like how dare you call the Princess Bride stupid shit?

Tracie Guy-Decker:

And just as a reminder, we don't think it's stupid shit. No, it's all the other unwashed masses who mistakenly believe.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, it's a movie for kids. So next time, what are you gonna be telling me about?

Tracie Guy-Decker:

Oh, next time I'm gonna share with you my deep thoughts about Ghostbusters, which is the piece that I take off my eye wore out.

Emily Guy Birken:

Yes, yes, the walls and the 57th recent are bleeding.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

How do you explain that? That's the one?

Emily Guy Birken:

Yet another very quotable movie from our childhood.

Tracie Guy-Decker:

All right see you then. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetekcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Deep Thoughts is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. You can help keep us overthinking. Support us through our Patreon with a link in the show notes. Leave a positive review so others can find us and share the show with your people. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?